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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:39 am Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
I pointed out that the 'aid' given by America is done purely out of reasons of self interest. The money is not given for any other reason than that and does in no way invalidate the fact that Israel is indeed victim of anti-semitism. |
If you mean in the self-interest of politicians to win votes and donor money, sure, ok. If you mean in the USA's self-interest as a whole, no freaking way.
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| The rather minimal support to Israel by their only serious ally is hardly evidence to the contray. |
Minimal support?? Billions of dollars in aid, the only country to vote in favor of Israel time and again in the UN, close (discreet) military ties, etc. What is an example of maximum support between two allies? |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:09 am Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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| Quote: |
| If you mean in the self-interest of politicians to win votes and donor money, sure, ok. If you mean in the USA's self-interest as a whole, no freaking way. |
I don't discount the importance of domestic political interests for why money is given to Israel. However, it is simply false to say that Israel has not been used as a very important proxy by the US for decades.
That is not to say that Israel is a slave to the US and does not act on its own accord, especially since the end of the Cold War. The point is though that to the people that matter in government and the military, Israel is still seen as very much an essential pillar in maintaining US global power.
| Quote: |
| Minimal support?? Billions of dollars in aid, the only country to vote in favor of Israel time and again in the UN, close (discreet) military ties, etc. What is an example of maximum support between two allies? |
Billions of dollars in aid to buy US arms and not sell Israeli arms on the international market. It is the same as Russia giving Venezuela 1 billion to buy Russian arms built by Russian companies.
The money whilst valued by Israel, is not the reason why the IDF has military dominance in the region nor why the Israeli forces have a technological advantage over their rivals. Israel and their military could still maintain their dominance even without the aid from the US.
When I say minimal support I mean to say that the US would intervene if the country was to be annihilated and refills their ammo stocks when running low. However, the US has restrained Israel and put pressure on Isreali leaders when their actions threaten to impact on US interests. In many cases to the detriment of Israeli interests. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If you mean in the self-interest of politicians to win votes and donor money, sure, ok. If you mean in the USA's self-interest as a whole, no freaking way. |
However, it is simply false to say that Israel has not been used as a very important proxy by the US for decades.
The point is though that to the people that matter in government and the military, Israel is still seen as very much an essential pillar in maintaining US global power. |
Why? I have never seen a serious answer to this question. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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| Leon wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If you mean in the self-interest of politicians to win votes and donor money, sure, ok. If you mean in the USA's self-interest as a whole, no freaking way. |
However, it is simply false to say that Israel has not been used as a very important proxy by the US for decades.
The point is though that to the people that matter in government and the military, Israel is still seen as very much an essential pillar in maintaining US global power. |
Why? I have never seen a serious answer to this question. |
During the Cold War Israel was on the front line of the East/West rivalry.
Since then they are of less importance, but you are forgetting that once a power like the US has established a global hegemony they are loathe to surrender it without a fight.
The fact is that Israel is very much in the corner of the US and gives the US substantial options in one of the most strategically important regions in the world. Plus despite some hiccups and notable exceptions such as Syria, the US has been able to maintain a close alliance with Israel and develop meanginful political and military alliances with important Arab states to contain and confront Iran.
In anycase it is not important whether or not the alliance with Israel is within US interests objectively, only whether or not it is seen as important by US decision makers. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
[The fact is that Israel is very much in the corner of the US and gives the US substantial options in one of the most strategically important regions in the world. Plus despite some hiccups and notable exceptions such as Syria, the US has been able to maintain a close alliance with Israel and develop meanginful political and military alliances with important Arab states to contain and confront Iran.
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What options? How does Israel strengthen US power and/or influence? How does the US alliance with Israel help the former?
How has Israel played a role with US maintaining alliances with the Gulf states, Jordan, and Egypt?
Contain Iran? When was the last time Iran expanded?? Or tried to expand? A couple centuries ago? Where would it expand to? Is there some Persian region I'm not aware of? Western Afghanistan perhaps? yeah, I don't think Iran has any interest in becoming more involved in that country. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:04 am Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
[The fact is that Israel is very much in the corner of the US and gives the US substantial options in one of the most strategically important regions in the world. Plus despite some hiccups and notable exceptions such as Syria, the US has been able to maintain a close alliance with Israel and develop meanginful political and military alliances with important Arab states to contain and confront Iran.
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What options? How does Israel strengthen US power and/or influence? How does the US alliance with Israel help the former?
How has Israel played a role with US maintaining alliances with the Gulf states, Jordan, and Egypt?
Contain Iran? When was the last time Iran expanded?? Or tried to expand? A couple centuries ago? Where would it expand to? Is there some Persian region I'm not aware of? Western Afghanistan perhaps? yeah, I don't think Iran has any interest in becoming more involved in that country. |
Again the point is that the people who make decisions in the US are the ones who obviously value the continued strong relationship with Israel.
Though just for fun,
1) A lot of the influence comes from the fact that Israel is the major military power in the most strategically important region on Earth. As Israel was/is a proxy of the US that gives them huge diplomatic influence/leverage.
You know why economically and militarily strong countries like the UK, France and China don't really have that much influence/power in that region? Because they have no stake, no serious allies and no ability to turn words into actions in that part of the world.
Also it is important to understand that most of this influence is also potential. So long as Israel holds the balance of power in the region nobody else can muscle in on the what the US decides is valuable.
Practically speaking, there is a huge amount of intelligence sharing especially in relation to anti-terror operations. Logistically Israel is a very important base for the US navy and R&D is a big component of their cooperation.
2) Israel has not played a role in the US attempts to woo Arab allies. In fact it has been a huge weight around their necks. BUT despite that difficulty, the last few decades has shown that the Arab allies are willing to overlook that in return for extensive economic links and support against Iran.
3) Does a country have to invade with a tank army and plant a flag for there to be interference and expansion into another country? No.
Iran has its fingers in the Shia areas of Iraq so much so that their support is now seen as crucial for the prospects of Iraqi presidents. They have long standing designs and links with anti-government groups in the Gulf. They oppress the Kurds. They directly and overtly support and supply Hezbollah, Assad and have an off-on affair with HAMAS.
I am not saying this is good or bad, I am simply saying that Iran is not some peaceful little petal.
I would also point out that it is precisely the threat from Iran that motivates Sunni Arab States to ally with the US inspite of their revulsion at the US support for Israel. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
[The fact is that Israel is very much in the corner of the US and gives the US substantial options in one of the most strategically important regions in the world. Plus despite some hiccups and notable exceptions such as Syria, the US has been able to maintain a close alliance with Israel and develop meanginful political and military alliances with important Arab states to contain and confront Iran.
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What options? How does Israel strengthen US power and/or influence? How does the US alliance with Israel help the former?
How has Israel played a role with US maintaining alliances with the Gulf states, Jordan, and Egypt?
Contain Iran? When was the last time Iran expanded?? Or tried to expand? A couple centuries ago? Where would it expand to? Is there some Persian region I'm not aware of? Western Afghanistan perhaps? yeah, I don't think Iran has any interest in becoming more involved in that country. |
Just to be blunt about it, as a military ally Israel is probably worse than worthless. Any coalition that includes Israel in the region will be worse off due to the animosity, and will become an even bigger magnet for insurgents/ probably totally unacceptable to the country that the operation is taking place in. Maybe intelligence sharing with Israel is good, but I wouldn't count on them to not shape the intelligence they share for their own benefit.
Israel helps counter the expansion of Iran how? Iran is able to build proxy groups like hamas and hizbollah only because Israel is so unpopular that they are seen as necessary by the population. Iran gains legitimacy by poking Israel. Anyways, Iran has lots of problems, but better Iran than the expansion of Sunni extremism funded by our allies like Saudi Arabia and influenced by Saudi ideology. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and vileness of Islamic anti-semitism. |
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| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
If you want to play the "they are evil bigots" game I would like to point out Israel's racial policies aren't exactly lovely. The amount of bigotry towards Arabs that are shown by public figures is almost as horrific and there are many documentaries out there that talk about the treatment of arabs by Israeli locals in certain reas.
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I would also like to point out that there are Israeli Arabs in the Israeli government and that despite the malaise in the article below Israeli Arabs by a majority would (given a choice) stay in Israel rather than an Arab country.
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| There are at present 17 Arabs in Israel’s 120-seat parliament; at least six are Druze, including a member of Mr Netanyahu’s Likud party. |
http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21569427-arab-israelis-are-too-disheartened-take-forthcoming-election
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| Surprisingly, the Arabs even think Israel should aspire to turn more towards Western culture than that of the Arab Middle East. And perhaps most surprising of all, they express affection towards their country: 58% believe Israel is a good place to live and 55% would prefer living in Israel than any other country in the world. |
This in spite of 67% who believe or claim they believe that Israel is a "racist state".
http://www.haaretz.com/business/1.567704
The reverse...just isn't going to happen. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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I visited both Israel and the West Bank / Palestine last year. Israel, for all its faults (it has many), is a prosperous liberal democracy in a sea of fascist dictatorships. I met several Arabs there who were perfectly content to be described as "Israeli". Many other, obviously in Jerusalem, will never accept that label.
I know that if I was a liberal Muslim I would much rather live in Israel than ANY Muslim country. I would have far, far greater human rights than I would in Syria, Egypt or Iran. Women have a full equality denied them in Arab countries. Gays have their rights protected. You can be a conservative Muslim, or an atheist. You can shout your atheism from the rooftops. Noon is going to throw you in a dungeon. They have free elections, a free press, freedom of religion, and all the liberal niceties we enjoy back home. Israel (for all its faults - some of them grave) is a shining beacon of liberal democracy in a region of the world where,by rights, none should exist. Yet, there it is. The sole Jewish-majority state on the globe surrounded by a billion people who wish to destroy that fact. People who talk, mere decades after the end of the Nazi holocaust, of "exterminating" the Jews and who have adopted the Nazi salute as their rallying cry against Israel.
As a Muslim I would much rather live as a free person in Tel Aviv than a slave in Tehran. That goes doubly if I was a Muslim woman. Or an atheist, a gay person, or a Christian. Israel is far from perfect, but it's a much better place to live than any of its neighbors who would wish its destruction. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
I visited both Israel and the West Bank / Palestine last year. Israel, for all its faults (it has many), is a prosperous liberal democracy in a sea of fascist dictatorships. I met several Arabs there who were perfectly content to be described as "Israeli". Many other, obviously in Jerusalem, will never accept that label.
I know that if I was a liberal Muslim I would much rather live in Israel than ANY Muslim country. I would have far, far greater human rights than I would in Syria, Egypt or Iran. Women have a full equality denied them in Arab countries. Gays have their rights protected. You can be a conservative Muslim, or an atheist. You can shout your atheism from the rooftops. Noon is going to throw you in a dungeon. They have free elections, a free press, freedom of religion, and all the liberal niceties we enjoy back home. Israel (for all its faults - some of them grave) is a shining beacon of liberal democracy in a region of the world where,by rights, none should exist. Yet, there it is. The sole Jewish-majority state on the globe surrounded by a billion people who wish to destroy that fact. People who talk, mere decades after the end of the Nazi holocaust, of "exterminating" the Jews and who have adopted the Nazi salute as their rallying cry against Israel.
As a Muslim I would much rather live as a free person in Tel Aviv than a slave in Tehran. That goes doubly if I was a Muslim woman. Or an atheist, a gay person, or a Christian. Israel is far from perfect, but it's a much better place to live than any of its neighbors who would wish its destruction. |
Too bad about the whole occupying millions of people bit, eh, or the whole taking over other people's land and not letting them return, but other than that it sounds lovely and I can't fathom why people in the region, or in the territories dislike them. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
Too bad about the whole occupying millions of people bit, eh, |
The Palestinian population mushroomed thanks to the economic opportunities provided by Israel.
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| or the whole taking over other people's land and not letting them return, |
Did the Palestinians allow any of the tens of thousands of jews to return to their former lands in Palestine?
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| I can't fathom why people in the region, or in the territories dislike them. |
I'll give you a hint: the enmity between these two long pre-dates the creation of the state of Israel. It has nothing to do with settlements or barricades. Muslims want to kill all non-muslims, that is the command given them in their operations manual. They are in the grip of a 6th century death-cult that does not tolerate diversity. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
Too bad about the whole occupying millions of people bit, eh, |
The Palestinian population mushroomed thanks to the economic opportunities provided by Israel.
| Quote: |
| or the whole taking over other people's land and not letting them return, |
Did the Palestinians allow any of the tens of thousands of jews to return to their former lands in Palestine? |
Are you talking about historic Palestine or modern day Palestine? If you mean historic Palestine, than how long had it been since those Europeans had lived in their former land?
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I can't fathom why people in the region, or in the territories dislike them. |
I'll give you a hint: the enmity between these two long pre-dates the creation of the state of Israel. It has nothing to do with settlements or barricades. Muslims want to kill all non-muslims, that is the command given them in their operations manual. They are in the grip of a 6th century death-cult that does not tolerate diversity. |
See, if you don't know history that might be convincing, but Jews have historically lived in the region... |
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FriendlyDaegu
Joined: 26 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| I visited both Israel and the West Bank / Palestine last year. Israel, for all its faults (it has many), is a prosperous liberal democracy in a sea of fascist dictatorships. |
Most of the countries surrounding Israel were prosperous liberal democracies 50 years ago. Things took a dramatic south turn after a few specific events which led to the fascists being able to take over. Like the US/UK coup of Iran for oil revenues. Western greed bears a lot of responsibility for the situation we now have in the Middle East.
The goal for everyone except the ones in power is to get back what they once had. |
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