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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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 Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
Are you talking about historic Palestine or modern day Palestine? If you mean historic Palestine, than how long had it been since those Europeans had lived in their former land? |
After partition Jews were forced out of the newly-designated Palestinian areas, despite having had land and homes there since time immemorial. Did they get a "right of return"?. No. Same goes for the recent relinquishing of gaza. It wasn't safe for jews to remain; they lost their farms and land.
Meanwhile many muslims live securely as Israeli citizens.
| Quote: |
| See, if you don't know history that might be convincing, but Jews have historically lived in the region... |
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.
Yes, Jews occupied that area before the arabs/ muslims. And have had an unbroken presence there for millennia.
Its sadly ironic that about 90% of modern Palestinians are descended from former Jews that were forced to convert to Islam under the ottoman empire. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| After partition Jews were forced out of the newly-designated Palestinian areas, despite having had land and homes there since time immemorial. |
Very good point.
The ancient Jewish community of East Jerusalem were removed by the Israelis in the interests of peace. After they left their burial sites and places of worship were vandalized by the Jordanians.
Another point is that whilst Arab-Israelis are allowed to live in Israel proper, the Palestinians demand the removal of all Jewish settlements in any future state in the West Bank.
If Israel has an Arab minority, why can't the new Palestine have a Jewish minority with land rights and seats in their new parliament? It is funny how a lot of right on activists are essentially supporting ethnic cleansing. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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| Leon wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If you mean in the self-interest of politicians to win votes and donor money, sure, ok. If you mean in the USA's self-interest as a whole, no freaking way. |
However, it is simply false to say that Israel has not been used as a very important proxy by the US for decades.
The point is though that to the people that matter in government and the military, Israel is still seen as very much an essential pillar in maintaining US global power. |
Why? I have never seen a serious answer to this question. |
That is the Chomsky position. Israel is a tool of the USA and those plucky innocent Israeli's get all the blame.
Meanwhile: http://www.natsummit.org/program.htm
Hey someone point me in the direction of USPAC (the United States Public Affairs Committee, you know, the organization that lobbies Israel on behalf of the United States).
Here's a quick background on the Israel lobby and what is does: http://scotthorton.org/interviews/2014/07/23/072314-grant-f-smith/ |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| FriendlyDaegu wrote: |
Most of the countries surrounding Israel were prosperous liberal democracies 50 years ago. Things took a dramatic south turn after a few specific events which led to the fascists being able to take over. Like the US/UK coup of Iran for oil revenues. Western greed bears a lot of responsibility for the situation we now have in the Middle East.
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What the hell are you talking about? In 1964:
Syria and Iraq were a mess with little political stabiity and certainly not democracies.
Jordan had a monarchy, just like it does today.
Egypt was being run by Nasser, who took over the country in 1952 through a military coup.
Lebanon was somewhat of a democracy, just like it is now.
So out of the countries bordering Israel (plus Iraq, which participated in attacking Israel in 1948), only ONE could have been considered a liberal democracy in 1964, or really at any point in the 60s. Even if you want to include the entire middle east, you would only be able to also include Turkey- maybe (I'm not very familiar with Turkish history between Attaturk and the past decade or so). |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
Are you talking about Its sadly ironic that about 90% of modern Palestinians are descended from former Jews that were forced to convert to Islam under the ottoman empire. |
Making up facts is fun!
You're aware that the Ottomans ruled modern day Israel and Palestine after the crusaders right? Are you telling me that the crusaders ruled over a jewish majority land? That's pretty fascinating. And the Arab muslims who ruled the "holy land" prior to the crusaders and Turks did not force to convert anyone either huh? Otherwise how else could such a huge percentage of Palestinians convert in the Ottoman era? I think that contradicts your earlier postings Junior. Eh, I mean Chaparrastique. |
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metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| The same things happen in AMERICA. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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| Titus wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If you mean in the self-interest of politicians to win votes and donor money, sure, ok. If you mean in the USA's self-interest as a whole, no freaking way. |
However, it is simply false to say that Israel has not been used as a very important proxy by the US for decades.
The point is though that to the people that matter in government and the military, Israel is still seen as very much an essential pillar in maintaining US global power. |
Why? I have never seen a serious answer to this question. |
That is the Chomsky position. Israel is a tool of the USA and those plucky innocent Israeli's get all the blame.
Meanwhile: http://www.natsummit.org/program.htm
Hey someone point me in the direction of USPAC (the United States Public Affairs Committee, you know, the organization that lobbies Israel on behalf of the United States).
Here's a quick background on the Israel lobby and what is does: http://scotthorton.org/interviews/2014/07/23/072314-grant-f-smith/ |
Read this too: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/09/01/friends-israel
Its long. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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And let's not the hundreds of thousands of Jews who fled their homes across the Muslim world after 1948. After the Arab defeat in the 1948 war many regimes (and populaces) turned on their local Jews. Vast numbers fled, mostly to Israel. They are forbidden to return to the lands of their birth. How come when people talk about "the right of return" of Palestinians they never mention the "right of return" for expelled Jews?
Nor should we forget that between 1948 and 1967 the West Bank was technically part of Jordan. Yet that fellow Arab regime showed no interest in granting independence to the Palestinians. It's only after the Israelis took it in 1967 that the cry went up for a Palestinian state. Jordan had the chance to create such a state and failed to do so. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Making up facts is fun! . |
| Quote: |
90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from the Jews. Not only that, many Palestinians retain Jewish customs, including mourning rituals, lighting Shabbat or memorial candles and even wearing tefillin. While the common wisdom among many Israelis is that the group that calls itself "Palestinian" is a motley collection of Arabs from various parts of the Middle East who immigrated to the Land of Israel following the employment opportunities provided by Jews, Misinai says that the vast majority of today's Palestinians are descended from the remnants of Jewish families who managed to avoid being deported over the past 2,000 years, or returned to their lands after they were exiled, as the Jews in the Holy Land suffered blow after blow - from the Roman destruction of the Temple to the Crusades to famine, poverty and war throughout the Middle Ages. One thing many were unable to avoid, however, was converting to Islam
In 2001, Human Immunology magazine published a genetic study conducted by Prof. Antonio Arnez-Vilna, a Spanish researcher from the University of Complutense in Madrid, who discovered that the immune systems of the Jews and the Palestinians are extremely close to one another in a way that almost absolutely demonstrates a similar genetic identity.
a 2002 test by Tel Aviv University researchers, determined that only two groups in the world - Ashkenazi Jews and Palestinians - were genetically susceptible to an inherited deafness syndrome. All the studies he cites in his book, says Misinai, show that "the Palestinians are genetically much closer to Ashkenazi Jews than they are to the Arabs."
http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/The-lost-Palestinian-Jews
http://riverscrap.typepad.com/home/2009/08/oy-vey-90-of-palestinians-have-jewish-heritage.html |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Making up facts is fun! . |
| Quote: |
90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from the Jews. Not only that, many Palestinians retain Jewish customs, including mourning rituals, lighting Shabbat or memorial candles and even wearing tefillin. While the common wisdom among many Israelis is that the group that calls itself "Palestinian" is a motley collection of Arabs from various parts of the Middle East who immigrated to the Land of Israel following the employment opportunities provided by Jews, Misinai says that the vast majority of today's Palestinians are descended from the remnants of Jewish families who managed to avoid being deported over the past 2,000 years, or returned to their lands after they were exiled, as the Jews in the Holy Land suffered blow after blow - from the Roman destruction of the Temple to the Crusades to famine, poverty and war throughout the Middle Ages. One thing many were unable to avoid, however, was converting to Islam
In 2001, Human Immunology magazine published a genetic study conducted by Prof. Antonio Arnez-Vilna, a Spanish researcher from the University of Complutense in Madrid, who discovered that the immune systems of the Jews and the Palestinians are extremely close to one another in a way that almost absolutely demonstrates a similar genetic identity.
a 2002 test by Tel Aviv University researchers, determined that only two groups in the world - Ashkenazi Jews and Palestinians - were genetically susceptible to an inherited deafness syndrome. All the studies he cites in his book, says Misinai, show that "the Palestinians are genetically much closer to Ashkenazi Jews than they are to the Arabs."
http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/The-lost-Palestinian-Jews
http://riverscrap.typepad.com/home/2009/08/oy-vey-90-of-palestinians-have-jewish-heritage.html |
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No mention of forced conversion or the ottomans. Like I said, you are making up facts. |
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andrewchon
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Back in Oz. Living in ISIS Aust.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:38 am Post subject: |
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Turkey was a secular republic from 1923. Turkey has had the laïcité policy since then. So, Turkey is not part of the current Middle-East problem.
The dispute is really about the post-world war II settlements. Arabs chose to stay semi-neutral because Britain was desparate to protect the oil-supply line from Persia-Iraq-Jordan-Haifa (in present day Israel) and sort of knew that Nazis had concentration camp/gas chamber/mass grave for Arabs in future. Jews chose to fight on the side of Allies. 30,000 men Jewish Brigade fought in Syria and Italy, and this is while they needed fighters to safeguard their families that were getting attacked by the Arabs (semi-neutral, remember?)
When war finishes and the winnings are divided, one who gets the most is the one who provided the most troops and got the most casualties. In case of WW2, it's Soviet Union. Those who didn't, usually get nothing. All them South American countries that declared war on Germany,got virtually nothing ('cept Nazi refugees) Jews provided troops, so they have to get something. Arabs, who didn't fight, have hell of a nerve demanding land at the peace conference. They were lucky to be offered partition and they rejected that, as well. Arabs can stir up world opinons all they want, but as long as the Israelis have the diplomatic world covered, the justice will continue to be served. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
No mention of forced conversion |
Are you sure you actually read the articles?
Quote...:
| Quote: |
| One thing many were unable to avoid, however, was converting to Islam - a forced conversion that never really "took," done more out of fear than conviction. |
| Quote: |
| when the Ottomans conquered the region in the 15th century, they changed over to Islam. |
| Quote: |
| Palestinians, who he says are made up chiefly of two groups: Jews who lived in the mountain regions of Judea and Samaria, who were able to maintain their Jewish identities for hundreds of years before being forced to make a choice between exile and conversion to Islam |
| Quote: |
| his mother's side included descendents from a family of forced converts to Islam who emigrated to the east bank of Jordan |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
No mention of forced conversion |
Are you sure you actually read the articles?
Quote...:
| Quote: |
| One thing many were unable to avoid, however, was converting to Islam - a forced conversion that never really "took," done more out of fear than conviction. |
| Quote: |
| when the Ottomans conquered the region in the 15th century, they changed over to Islam. |
| Quote: |
| Palestinians, who he says are made up chiefly of two groups: Jews who lived in the mountain regions of Judea and Samaria, who were able to maintain their Jewish identities for hundreds of years before being forced to make a choice between exile and conversion to Islam |
| Quote: |
| his mother's side included descendents from a family of forced converts to Islam who emigrated to the east bank of Jordan |
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I just read what you quoted, which didn't address anything I disputed. Don't blame me for poorly choosing an excerpt from your link. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
No mention of forced conversion |
Are you sure you actually read the articles?
Quote...:
| Quote: |
| One thing many were unable to avoid, however, was converting to Islam - a forced conversion that never really "took," done more out of fear than conviction. |
| Quote: |
| when the Ottomans conquered the region in the 15th century, they changed over to Islam. |
| Quote: |
| Palestinians, who he says are made up chiefly of two groups: Jews who lived in the mountain regions of Judea and Samaria, who were able to maintain their Jewish identities for hundreds of years before being forced to make a choice between exile and conversion to Islam |
| Quote: |
| his mother's side included descendents from a family of forced converts to Islam who emigrated to the east bank of Jordan |
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They're called the Donmeh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6nmeh |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If you mean in the self-interest of politicians to win votes and donor money, sure, ok. If you mean in the USA's self-interest as a whole, no freaking way. |
However, it is simply false to say that Israel has not been used as a very important proxy by the US for decades.
The point is though that to the people that matter in government and the military, Israel is still seen as very much an essential pillar in maintaining US global power. |
Why? I have never seen a serious answer to this question. |
That is the Chomsky position. Israel is a tool of the USA and those plucky innocent Israeli's get all the blame.
Meanwhile: http://www.natsummit.org/program.htm
Hey someone point me in the direction of USPAC (the United States Public Affairs Committee, you know, the organization that lobbies Israel on behalf of the United States).
Here's a quick background on the Israel lobby and what is does: http://scotthorton.org/interviews/2014/07/23/072314-grant-f-smith/ |
Read this too: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/09/01/friends-israel
Its long. |
I am not fan of Obama, but the one thing that makes me happy I voted for him in 2008 is his resistance to AIPAC and its supporters in regards to Iran. If only he had that much resolve and dedication to some of his other policies... |
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