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The Year Without English
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Kepler



Joined: 24 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just read his update. He says that studying Korean in Korea has been the "least pleasant" part of his adventure. He says it is harder to follow the no English rule in Korea because many Koreans speak English well and they don't expect foreigners to speak their language. He has also noticed that Korea "suffers from the problem of the glut of English teachers who come to Korea with little intention of learning Korean." Despite the difficulty of learning Korean, he says he hopes to achieve a "low conversational level" at the end of three months.
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote]. He has also noticed that Korea "suffers from the problem of the glut of English teachers who come to Korea with little intention of learning Korean"
[quote]

Yeah, maybe because they have actual jobs to go to, rather than being full time hobbyists/travel bums. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
In southern Europe, I’ve generally felt that being able to speak the language is considered a requirement for people living in the country.


He's obviously never been to the Costa Del Sol
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giraffe



Joined: 07 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i dont know...
To me, sounds like hes making excuses for Korean.


I think he realized how much longer it would take to reach the same level that he has with spanish/portugese/Chinese. I mean, he keeps talking about how its a one in a life time opportunity to learn these languages and to use them his whole life back home in canada... and him saying that the only reason He wont be as proficient in korean is because he decided to spend less time studying is such a stupid excuse considering the whole point of this project is to Learn as much as he can... Seems like a waste...

I would have been curious to see how conversational he could get if he went Full on like he did with the other languages.

I've no doubt he can become quite fluent in korean But I just wished he was more honest with his statements. I dont buy it.
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do they afford this?
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How do they afford this?


flogging their self help books and advertising on their blog presumably
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some melancholy in his most recent post:

http://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/2014/08/19/im-26/

Quote:
From the beginning, both Vat and I understood this year of travel was a once-in-a-lifetime experience, not how either of us planned to live our lives perpetually. I have incredible admiration for people like Benny Lewis or Matt Kepnes, who can do the travel lifestyle continuously, but I’m not one of them.

...the one-year-project strategy also has some drawbacks.

For one, by its nature, it tends to focus on quick bursts rather than slow mastery, a philosophical stance I’m uncomfortable suggesting. Learning something quickly isn’t as important as learning it deeply, and by hopping around to different subjects quickly I may be able to say something interesting about how to learn efficiently, but I may also be sending the wrong message about mastery and the patient devotion to a subject.

Privately, I feel mastery is incredibly important. If it isn’t obvious to the casual reader, my true focus is not computer science or languages per se, but learning how learning works. Understanding that has always been my primary goal, and experiencing it firsthand has been the laboratory for exploring those ideas.
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Kepler



Joined: 24 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's back in Canada now. It sounds like he struggled with Korean the most. I think he realizes he would have gotten more out of the experience if he had studied Korean more before coming here. He had the most trouble following the no-English rule in Korea. Overall, I think he feels his trip was successful.

"Korea was much worse than China. Neither of us had adequate preparation prior to arrival, so our method of avoiding speaking English became avoiding speaking entirely for the first month. Later on, we did speak more Korean, but we frequently switched back to English both in our conversations and with other Koreans. Struggling to find Korean-only friends in the beginning, Vat and I decided to cheat and do language exchanges as a means of making local friends.

"The main takeaway I made from all of this was: Asian languages are hard, and attempting full-immersion without sufficient preparation is usually not going to work....

"The fact that I can confidently say I reached a conversational level in Spanish, Portuguese and Chinese, and a near-conversational level for Korean is far above what I originally thought was possible.

"The no-English rule was largely what made the difference. Although there are many ways of learning a language, going for full immersion made it possible to learn what would have taken years in just a few months....

"We both really got to experience the culture firsthand. Discussing mandatory military service over soju and salted fish. Sharing tea and talking politics with a tattooed Buddhist from Tibet. Paragliding over the beach with a girl from Argentina. None of those people spoke English, so I never would have met those people if I didn’t learn these languages."
http://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/2014/09/01/tywe-review/
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

"We both really got to experience the culture firsthand. Discussing mandatory military service over soju and salted fish. Sharing tea and talking politics with a tattooed Buddhist from Tibet. Paragliding over the beach with a girl from Argentina. None of those people spoke English, so I never would have met those people if I didn’t learn these languages."


Well you could have met a bunch of other people who spoke a bit of English who would have told you exactly the same thing about military service and politics over salted fish and soju without lessening the cultural experience a whole lot. Added to which people who have made the effort to learn the world's international language would in general likely to be more interesting people to meet. Still, you got a free holiday out of it and get to feel a bit different/special and that's the main thing.
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edwardcatflap wrote:
Added to which people who have made the effort to learn the world's international language would in general likely to be more interesting people to meet.


Or more annoyingly ambitious.
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Kepler



Joined: 24 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a video of him speaking Korean near the end of the three months-
http://vimeo.com/m/105784111

I think I am neither that impressed nor disappointed. He is at the level I would expect an average person to attain after three months of semi immersion. I say semi immersion because he admitted that he broke the no-English rule a lot in Korea. He said he had to resort to language exchanges much of the time. I'm not surprised. Most Koreans are not interested in listening to a foreigner speaking broken Korean without any chance to practice their English.
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kepler wrote:
Here is a video of him speaking Korean near the end of the three months-
http://vimeo.com/m/105784111

I think I am neither that impressed nor disappointed. He is at the level I would expect an average person to attain after three months of semi immersion. I say semi immersion because he admitted that he broke the no-English rule a lot in Korea. He said he had to resort to language exchanges much of the time. I'm not surprised. Most Koreans are not interested in listening to a foreigner speaking broken Korean without any chance to practice their English.

They are probably better than 90% of white foreigners that have been in country for a few years. Probably can hold an okay conversation with a taxi driver.
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kepler wrote:
Here is a video of him speaking Korean near the end of the three months-
http://vimeo.com/m/105784111

I think I am neither that impressed nor disappointed. He is at the level I would expect an average person to attain after three months of semi immersion. I say semi immersion because he admitted that he broke the no-English rule a lot in Korea. He said he had to resort to language exchanges much of the time. I'm not surprised. Most Koreans are not interested in listening to a foreigner speaking broken Korean without any chance to practice their English.


The guy in the middle speaks pretty well for only three months.

If the vast majority of ESL teachers didn't have to spend 9-10 hours speaking English everyday, I am sure they would quickly attain a similar level.
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SeoulNate



Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa

PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kepler wrote:
Here is a video of him speaking Korean near the end of the three months-
http://vimeo.com/m/105784111

I think I am neither that impressed nor disappointed. He is at the level I would expect an average person to attain after three months of semi immersion. I say semi immersion because he admitted that he broke the no-English rule a lot in Korea. He said he had to resort to language exchanges much of the time. I'm not surprised. Most Koreans are not interested in listening to a foreigner speaking broken Korean without any chance to practice their English.


I don't think that is the real reason. I have struggled with this as well in my Korean studies over the past few years. The real reason for this problem in Korea I can try to illustrate with an example:
I have yet to met a teacher or tutor here (speaking about Koreans) that truly understand the concept of teacher talk/foreigner talk as it relates to language learning. Every teacher/tutor insists on using natural or near natural level speeds for speaking. This is unacceptable for language learning and does not promote learning through immersion at all, in fact it restricts it severely.

It is a simple fact: people in Korea do not slow down when they talk. They have no need to do so. The number of people who speak Korean at a less than proficient level have never bothered them. This is not true for any other country I have ever been to in the world; ESPECIALLY the other three that he visited. I have spent quite a bit of time in China over the years (with terrible Chinese) and just due to their use of foreigner talk I have been able to at least make out what they were trying to tell me. This does not happen in Korea. I would challenge people to go out in their daily lives (if you are not at a proficient level of Korean) and try to find people who modify their language to help you understand better. It simply doesn't exist, unless they are able to use English.

Actually I am kind of surprised they didnt write about that more, it is fairly obvious when you are here trying to study if you have studied language learning theory at all.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SeoulNate wrote:
I don't think that is the real reason. I have struggled with this as well in my Korean studies over the past few years. The real reason for this problem in Korea I can try to illustrate with an example:
I have yet to met a teacher or tutor here (speaking about Koreans) that truly understand the concept of teacher talk/foreigner talk as it relates to language learning. Every teacher/tutor insists on using natural or near natural level speeds for speaking. This is unacceptable for language learning and does not promote learning through immersion at all, in fact it restricts it severely.


Hmm. Having never used a teacher or tutor in my Korean studies, I can't comment on that, but I do know that when my Korean study was less advanced, the people around me would slow down their speech, insert pauses, and use alternative vocabulary for me as necessary. Some of that may be the result of long-term exposure; working at the same school for years means everyone knew me well and had a good notion of the level of my communicative capability at any given time. In other words, perhaps they simply learned to overcome the problem you're describing here for the sake of successfully communicating, and that's why I never really noticed it?
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SeoulNate



Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa

PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
SeoulNate wrote:
I don't think that is the real reason. I have struggled with this as well in my Korean studies over the past few years. The real reason for this problem in Korea I can try to illustrate with an example:
I have yet to met a teacher or tutor here (speaking about Koreans) that truly understand the concept of teacher talk/foreigner talk as it relates to language learning. Every teacher/tutor insists on using natural or near natural level speeds for speaking. This is unacceptable for language learning and does not promote learning through immersion at all, in fact it restricts it severely.


Hmm. Having never used a teacher or tutor in my Korean studies, I can't comment on that, but I do know that when my Korean study was less advanced, the people around me would slow down their speech, insert pauses, and use alternative vocabulary for me as necessary. Some of that may be the result of long-term exposure; working at the same school for years means everyone knew me well and had a good notion of the level of my communicative capability at any given time. In other words, perhaps they simply learned to overcome the problem you're describing here for the sake of successfully communicating, and that's why I never really noticed it?


I would tend to agree with that, after a while it becomes more natural (mandatory?) for them to do so and I have experienced that as well; my fiancée's family does it for me for example. However, it is not something that people here do naturally and that really restricts the ability to communicate for people who are not at least at an intermediate level.

I can't really ask you to go out and experience it Fox, since your level is already past that, and I can't really just revert my Korean either, but it is something that I have noticed and written about in the past. If you get a chance, ask a few Korean language students who are just getting started to give you their opinions on the matter.
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