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Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| julius wrote: |
The challenge to you, from me, is to provide proof of even one (1) creature that has significantly morphologically changed from what it was.
| KimchinNinja wrote: |
| .......! |
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how to make an evolutionist disappear, lol.
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| you've found a pre-Cambrian rabbit then? |
living things from all phyla and orders are increasingly found in older and earlier sediments. Almost every few months scientists are "amazed" to discover that certain creatures existed- unchanged- far earlier than they imagined. Pushing back the dates for this imaginary mass-evolution further and further. Conforming to what creationism predicts.
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“There are basically two models of how life came about: The evolution model suggests that chemicals coalesced and formed a living single-cell almost four billion years ago and then this changed over long periods of time into all other living things. Examples of evolutionary changes include a dinosaur into a bird, or a four-legged land mammal into a whale. The other model, creation, suggests that an external supernatural being (God) created all of the various types of animals and plants at once, and these organisms have changed little over time, other than variations within a basic type.”
Dr Werner’s use of ‘type’ is similar to the biblical use of the word ‘kind’ in Genesis. For example, an animal can change, but only within its kind, such as a wolf into a dog—not radical change such as a four-legged mammal into a whale.1
Dr Werner continued, “Living fossils provided me a simple way to test evolution. If evolution did not occur (animals did not change significantly over time) and if all of the animals and plants were created at one time and lived together (humans, dinosaurs, oak trees, roses, cats, wolves, etc), then one should be able to find fossils of at least some modern animals and modern plants alongside dinosaurs in the rock layers. I set out to test this idea without any foreknowledge of any modern organisms in the rock layers. My results (as laid out in the book & video Living Fossils) showed that many modern animals and plants are found with dinosaurs—far more than I ever expected to find.”
Dr Werner and his wife Debbie travelled over 100,000 miles (160,000 km) and took 60,000 photographs as they filmed the television series Evolution: The Grand Experiment. (Episode 2 of this series, Living Fossils, reveals exactly what they found.) They focused on fossils found in dinosaur rock layers, and compared these fossils to modern animals and plants.
“We looked only at fossils found in the dinosaur dig sites so that scientists who support evolution could not suggest that the fossils we looked at were not ‘old’. All of the fossils we used for comparisons were found in dinosaur rock layers (Triassic, Jurassic and Cretaceous).”
Many modern animals in dinosaur rock!
I asked Carl just how many modern types of animals he had found in the dinosaur rock layers.
“We found fossilized examples from every major invertebrate animal phylum living today including: arthropods (insects, crustaceans etc.), shellfish, echinoderms (starfish, crinoids, brittle stars, etc.), corals, sponges, and segmented worms (earthworms, marine worms).
“The vertebrates—animals with backbones such as fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals—show this same pattern.”
Modern fish, amphibians and reptiles
“Cartilaginous fish (sharks and rays), boney fish (such as sturgeon, paddlefish, salmon, herring, flounder and bowfin) and jawless fish (hagfish and lamprey) have been found in the dinosaur layers and they look the same as modern forms.“Modern-looking frogs and salamanders have been found in dinosaur dig sites.
“All of today’s reptile groups have been found in the dinosaur layers and they look the same or similar to modern forms: Snakes (boa constrictor), lizards (ground lizards and gliding lizards), turtles (box turtles, soft-shelled turtles), and crocodilians (alligators, crocodiles and gavials).”
Modern birds
“Contrary to popular belief, modern types of birds have been found, including: parrots, owls, penguins, ducks, loons, albatross, cormorants, sandpipers, avocets, etc. When scientists who support evolution disclosed this information during our TV interviews it appears that they could hardly believe what they were saying on camera.”
http://creation.com/werner-living-fossils |
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Underwaterbob

Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Location: In Cognito
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Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| blah blah Dr. Carl Werner blah blah |
What you need to respond to (instead of sidestepping) is the fact that many modern birds- looking no different from todays versions- have been found in rock alongside dinosaurs.
Doesn't really help your theory, does it? And the way that this fact is deliberately concealed by evolutionists begins to point to a conspiracy to deceive the public. |
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Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting Quotations from Scientists on Evolutionism
"Nine-tenths of the talk of evolutionists is sheer nonsense, not founded on observation and wholly unsupported by facts. This museum is full of proofs of the utter falsity of their views. In all this great museum, there is not a particle of evidence of the transmutation of species." (Dr. Etheridge, Paleontologist of the British Museum)
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"I reject evolution because I deem it obsolete; because the knowledge, hard won since 1830, of anatomy, histology, cytology, and embryology, cannot be made to accord with its basic idea. The foundationless, fantastic edifice of the evolution doctrine would long ago have met with its long- deserved fate were it not that the love of fairy tales is so deep-rooted in the hearts of man." (Dr. Albert Fleischmann, University of Erlangen)
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"By the late 1970s, debates on university campuses throughout the free world were being held on the subject of origins with increasing frequency. Hundreds of scientists, who once accepted the theory of evolution as fact, were abandoning ship and claiming that the scientific evidence was in total support of the theory of creation. Well-known evolutionists, such as Isaac Asimov and Stephen Jay Gould, were stating that, since the creationist scientists had won all of the more than one hundred debates, the evolutionists should not debate them." (Luther Sunderland, "Darwin's Enigma", p.10)
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"The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone; exactly the same sort of faith which is necessary to have when one encounters the great mysteries of religion... The only alternative is the doctrine of special creation, which may be true, but is irrational." (Dr. L.T. More)
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"I have come to the conclusion that Darwinism is not a testable scientific theory, but a metaphysical research programme... (Dr. Karl Popper, German-born philosopher of science, called by Nobel Prize-winner Peter Medawar, "incomparably the greatest philosopher of science who has ever lived.")
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"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an unproved theory -- is it then a science or faith? Belief in the theory of evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation..." (Dr. L. Harrison Matthews, in the introduction to the 1971 edition of Darwin's "Origin of Species")
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"What is so frustrating for our present purpose is that it seems almost impossible to give any numerical value to the probability of what seems a rather unlikely sequence of events... An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle... (Dr. Francis Crick, Nobel Prize-winner, codiscoverer of DNA)
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"Once we see, however, that the probability of life originating at random is so utterly minuscule as to make it absurd, it becomes sensible to think that the favorable properties of physics, on which life depends, are in every respect DELIBERATE... It is therefore, almost inevitable that our own measure of intelligence must reflect higher intelligences.. even to the limit of God." (Sir Fred Hoyle, British mathematician and astronomer, and Chandra Wickramasinghe, co-authors of "Evolution from Space," after acknowledging that they had been atheists all their lives)
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"The chance that higher life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable with the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein... I am at a loss to understand biologists' widespread compulsion to deny what seems to me to be obvious." (Sir Fred Hoyle)
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"I don't know how long it is going to be before astronomers generally recognize that the combinatorial arrangement of not even one among the many thousands of biopolymers on which life depends could have been arrived at by natural processes here on the earth. Astronomers will have a little difficulty in understanding this because they will be assured by biologists that it is not so, the biologists having been assured in their turn by others that it is not so. The 'others' are a group of persons who believe, quite openly, in mathematical miracles. They advocate the belief that tucked away in nature, outside of normal physics, there is a law which performs miracles (provided the miracles are in the aid of biology). This curious situation sits oddly on a profession that for long has been dedicated to coming up with logical explanations of biblical miracles... It is quite otherwise, however, with the modern miracle workers, who are always to be found living in the twilight fringes of thermodynamics." (Sir Fred Hoyle)
(These "mathematical miracles" that must have occurred are summarized in my paper "The Second Law of Thermodynamics and Evolution")
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"The fossil record with its abrupt transitions offers no support for gradual change..." (Dr. Stephen Jay Gould, famous Harvard Professor of Paleontology)
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"I admit that an awful lot of that has gotten into the textbooks as though it were true. For instance, the most famous example still on exhibit downstairs (in the American Museum) is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps 50 years ago. That has been presented as literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that that is lamentable, particularly because the people who propose these kinds of stories themselves may be aware of the speculative nature of some of the stuff. But by the time it filters down to the textbooks, we've got science as truth and we've got a problem." (Dr. Niles Eldridge, Curator of Invertebrate Paleontology at the American Museum)
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"The fundamental reason why a lot of paleontologists don't care much for gradualism is because the fossil record doesn't show gradual change and every paleontologist has know that ever since Cuvier. If you want to get around that you have to invoke the imperfection of the fossil record. Every paleontologist knows that most species, most species, don't change. That's bothersome if you are trained to believe that evolution ought to be gradual. In fact it virtually precludes your studying the very process you went into the school to study. Again, because you don't see it, that brings terrible distress." (Dr. Stephen Jay Gould)
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"To postulate that the development and survival of the fittest is entirely a consequence of chance mutations seems to me a hypothesis based on no evidence and irreconcilable with the facts. These classical evolutionary theories are a gross over-simplification of an immensely complex and intricate mass of facts, and it amazes me that they are swallowed so uncritically and readily, and for such a long time, by so many scientists without murmur of protest." (Sir Ernest Chain, Nobel Prize winner)
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"Evolution is a theory universally accepted, not because it can be proved to be true, but because the only alternative, 'special creation,' is clearly impossible." (D.M.S. Watson, Professor of Zoology, London University) |
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Underwaterbob

Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Location: In Cognito
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| blah blah Dr. Carl Werner blah blah |
What you need to respond to (instead of sidestepping) is the fact that many modern birds- looking no different from todays versions- have been found in rock alongside dinosaurs.
Doesn't really help your theory, does it? And the way that this fact is deliberately concealed by evolutionists begins to point to a conspiracy to deceive the public. |
Read the link I posted. I am not sidestepping. You are. But that's not new. I can't be arsed to type a bunch a stuff when the best you can do is drop links to creation.com. |
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Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Read the link I posted. |
Can't you paste the relevant passage? Like I did. With the main point in bold.
Instead of just dropping links. Its too boring just to have someone throw a random link at you. It does not inspire interest...
Its a debate, not a battle of the links.
| Quote: |
| I am not sidestepping. |
Good. So then can you comment on why many modern species of birds (as well as plants, reptiles, amphibians and other stuff) have been found in the same rock alongside dinosaurs?
And why the majority of museums omit to display or mention this fact? Instead pretending that dinosaurs gradually morphed into birds? |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003 Location: Yap
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Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Interesting Quotations from Scientists on Evolutionism... |
Thanks for that.
I've never given much thought to the question having assumed that only bible nuts opposed the theory. The quotes above open my eyes otherwise.
While not about to jump on the creationist train, I welcome every instance of unbrainwashing I encounter. Better a mystery than buying into junk science. |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:55 am Post subject: |
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If there is a God, may he strike me down and short-circuit my laptop.
zzzz*#@%POPcitzpop*zthkitzzApPOP
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Underwaterbob

Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Location: In Cognito
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Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
Good. So then can you comment on why many modern species of birds (as well as plants, reptiles, amphibians and other stuff) have been found in the same rock alongside dinosaurs?
And why the majority of museums omit to display or mention this fact? Instead pretending that dinosaurs gradually morphed into birds? |
The link I posted really quite efficiently deals with all of it. Just read it.
Because you probably won't: birds, plants, reptiles, amphibians and "other stuff" didn't suddenly appear after the dinosaurs went extinct. Many evolved alongside dinosaurs, some even before. That we find their fossils alongside dinosaur fossils is actually predicted by evolutionary theory.
And Dr. Carl Werner is a medical doctor not trained in anything remotely related to this field of study anyway. None of his 'work' is peer reviewed because it basically amounts to an opinion piece and is backed by exactly zero science whatsoever. |
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Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| birds, plants, reptiles, amphibians and "other stuff" didn't suddenly appear after the dinosaurs went extinct. |
I never said they did.
I said that numerous living things- unchanged from how they are today- are found in dinosaur rock (Triassic. jurassic. Cretaceous) . Alongside dinosaurs. Coexistent.
Creatures from every major invertebrate animal phylum living today including: arthropods (insects, crustaceans etc.), shellfish, echinoderms (starfish, crinoids, brittle stars, etc.), corals, sponges, and segmented worms (earthworms, marine worms). Of the vertebrates: fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals. Cartilaginous fish (sharks and rays), boney fish (e.g. sturgeon, paddlefish, salmon, herring, flounder and bowfin) and jawless fish (hagfish and lamprey). Amphibians: frogs and salamanders; all of today’s reptile groups are represented- snakes (boa constrictor), lizards (ground lizards and gliding lizards), turtles (box turtles, soft-shelled turtles), and crocodilians (alligators, crocodiles and gavials). Modern birds - parrots, owls, penguins, ducks, loons, albatross, cormorants, sandpipers, avocets, etc.
| Quote: |
| Many evolved alongside dinosaurs, some even before. |
Lol. Come off it now. Where's the evidence of your assumed evolution? There has been no change. All of the aforementioned are utterly identical to how they are today.
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| That we find their fossils alongside dinosaur fossils is actually predicted by evolutionary theory. |
So according to you birds descended from dinosaurs, but we find wholly modern birds living alongside dinosaurs (as well as before dinosaurs).
Lol. At what point do you guys run out of convenient rescue-clauses to your unfalsifiable fantasy? Your theory = the titanic and you guys are running round with buckets like headless chickens.
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| And Dr. Carl Werner is a medical doctor not trained in anything remotely related to this field of study |
What you mean is, he wasn't vetted or indoctrinated by one of your own placemen in your self- deluding academia racket.
He graduated from the University of Missouri with a distinction in Biology. If living organisms are totally unrelated to biology, then...
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| None of his 'work' is peer reviewed |
haha. You didn't just pull out the old 'peer-review' chestnut out the hat again did you? is that the process whereby the grand wizard of the ape-cult calls all his goons to ritually eliminate all evidence that threatens their theory?
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| because it basically amounts to an opinion piece and is backed by exactly zero science whatsoever. |
Mountains of video footage of fossils from dinosaur dig sites around the world. Interviews with evolutionist palaeontologists admitting the scam?
And still not one creature found in the fossil record with precursors or intermediates? All of them unchanged 'living fossils' with the ones that supposedly changed only theorized?
hahaha you make me laff... |
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catman

Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:26 am Post subject: |
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Julius, since there are no absolutes in science I will admit that there is a chance that you may be right. That the Biblical account of creation is accurate and that evolution is completely wrong.
Now I must ask, do you admit that you could be wrong? Are there any facts that could be presented to change your mind? |
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Underwaterbob

Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Location: In Cognito
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Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| hahaha you make me laff... |
Yeah well, you go right on eating up everything creation.com spews at you whilst accusing real science of massive conspiracies and brainwashing. I'll be here when you grow a whit of the critical thinking you claim everyone else lacks. Oh wait, you've been making these exact same arguments for years now and haven't yet. Well, see ya! |
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Rteacher

Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA
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Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:33 am Post subject: |
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The creation story of the Bible is essentially correct in that it acknowledges an original Creator, but the presentation lacks details and is not intended for scientific-minded audiences. However, an all-pervasive all-cognizant being should be able to internally empower receptive persons with requisite intelligence to make more intellectually appealing presentations that elaborate on the original idea using valid scientific arguments (though not necessarily conforming to all conventions of a system that may be subject to some bias and/or corruption...)
The Vedic system argues that since great scientists are accorded deferential authority, ultimate authority should be accorded to the greatest scientist (i.e. Krishna, aka God, Vishnu, Allah, Jehovah, etc...)
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-14/editorials12111.htm |
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metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010 Location: Toilet
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Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:12 am Post subject: |
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This makes the most sense to me - seeing as how the world is pretty crappy, I guess we all came out of God's/Krishna's/Allah's ass then. This is the intellectually sound position. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| So according to you birds descended from dinosaurs, but we find wholly modern birds living alongside dinosaurs (as well as before dinosaurs). |
Before which dinosaurs? I'm not aware of any phylogenetic tree that suggests no dinosaurs existed beyond the appearance of birds.
| Quote: |
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| And Dr. Carl Werner is a medical doctor not trained in anything remotely related to this field of study |
What you mean is, he wasn't vetted or indoctrinated by one of your own placemen in your self- deluding academia racket.
He graduated from the University of Missouri with a distinction in Biology. If living organisms are totally unrelated to biology, then... |
No, what he means is that Dr. Werner is not qualified to speak from a position of authority about evolution, which is evidenced by the very first sentence of your passage: "The evolution model suggests that chemicals coalesced and formed a living single-cell almost four billion years ago [...]"
Evolution does not speak to the origin of life, only to how that life has changed. |
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