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Affirmative Consent in California
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Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:32 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Given all the statements in question are about the same, single core proposition -- I've been talking about the same thing the entire time, after all -- there's no essential context being lost here. If you think the Leon portrayed above seems foolish, well, that's something about which you can concern yourself.

No, they are not. One concept, which as you have shown I labeled as uninteresting and easy to understand, is the idea that activities which make women vulnerable ought to be taboo.

The other idea is that there have been many societies throughout history that have structured themselves in such a way to make rape rare. Which is interesting and I am curious about. Rape is common, and in many cases widespread, throughout history. I would guess that it is probably less frequent at this moment than in most of human history. However, I know you are interested in history and thought you would mention something in contrast to that.

Fox wrote:

If so, it's pretty easy to understand why so many cultures in history have structured themselves so as to naturally minimize the situations which give rise to rape in the first place.

These are two distinct things. That is the context.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:52 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

I don't think I personally, directly invoked any normative language with you at all, Leon. In fact, quite the opposite, you injected the such language into our conversation yourself when you said, "and then argued that men and women should be supervised when dating," to which I responded not with agreement and assent, but with dismissive sarcasm. Rather, I provided an example of alternative cultural behaviors which obstruct rape, one of which is disallowing such conduct, indirectly quoted from parties who have researched the matter and written a book on it. In other words, exactly the kind of example for which you asked, and now you're trying to pretend it's no such thing in order to save face. I myself outright said, "If Leon wants to believe that society encouraging women to expose themselves to situations where rape risk is relatively high doesn't actually increase occurrences of rape, then that's up to him, and if he doesn't believe it, then he's not actually arguing with anything I'm saying." The only thing of which you can really complain is that I've refused to get into specifics with you, but here and now you are demonstrating exactly why I refuse to get into specifics with you.

radcon

Joined: 23 May 2011

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:50 pm Post subject:

These frat boys won't have to go very far to do their raping. http://news.msn.com/us/wesleyan-orders-fraternities-to-become-coed

KimchiNinja

Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:30 pm Post subject:

radcon wrote:

These frat boys won't have to go very far to do their raping.

True, these sorority women won't have to go very far to do their rape fantasy is also true.

Sector7G

Joined: 24 May 2008

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:43 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Sector7G wrote:

I was not questioning the relevance of my post, but the relevance of your response to my post, and I think you knew that - I am inclined to lob the "too intelligent" and "pretending to not understand" charge right back at you. The "flip side" of the false accusations claim that I was getting at, was, that regardless of how much of it actually goes on, there is really not a whole lot of prosecuting going on in campus cases anyway , at least in Florida, and that is how I stated it in the opening line of that post. And I still do not see what "cultural differences" have to do with that anyway.

1) Titus, to whom you were responding, mentioned false rape claims. That's where the "lying about rape" part came in.
2) Your article talked primarily about how alleged rape victims are often uncooperative. That's where the part about uncooperative victims came in.

It does not matter where either one of your first two points "came in" from. They are still completely irrelevant to the point I made, which is that there is not much prosecuting going on anyway. That's not an interpretation of the article - narrow, suggested, or otherwise. It's a statement of fact, maybe the only pure fact of that article, and it does not matter what the reason is behind it. If you want to decry the lack of cooperation among victims go right ahead, and talk all you want about cultural differences while you are at it, but it does not change that fact. I'm not sure why we are even debating this. Was it the term "flip side" that you object to?

Fox wrote:

When you complained about me not getting what you were saying, you did in fact misunderstand it seems, because what I was doing was responding to the actual content of the article you posted, not your narrow, suggested interpretation of it. After all, the article didn't merely mention that rape prosecutions were low, it gave some information regarding why that was the case. That's also why I wrote, "Yes, I realize that.

But let's talk about the article anyway. You say you were responding to the "actual content", but if one went back and did a content analysis they would find it hard to justify your description of it as one that is "primarily about how alleged rape victims are often uncooperative." But you are right - it does give information on why prosecutions are so low. Look for yourself - it's pretty evenly split between victims being uncooperative and the prosecutors not wanting to proceed and/or not being aggressive enough , and it also sounds like some are in the "uncooperative" category because the police pressure them to drop it.

Fox wrote:

Sector7G wrote:

While I understand that is how you feel now, you have to admit that that is a fairly long and convoluted way to get from A to Z, and I don't know how you expected me to know that is what you meant before when you accused me of pretending.

I'm glad you understand now. I thought you'd understand before because the chain of logic seems quite clear to me.

I should have seen that "Many rapes not ending in convictions results in angry feminists pushing their ideology"??? Right, how could I have not seen the logic in that. It should have been clear as mud.

Fox wrote:

I'm glad we're in agreement, though I suspect you may disagree with my clarification regarding the responsibility of rape victims to cooperate with the police and provide testimony in order to get rapists off of the streets.

Yes, I would object to describing it as wildly selfish, especially if they dropped it under pressure from and/or lack of aggressiveness by the police.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:15 pm Post subject:

Sector7G wrote:

It does not matter where either one of your first two points "came in" from. They are still completely irrelevant to the point I made, which is that there is not much prosecuting going on anyway.

You're essentially complaining here that I didn't entirely ignore the article you posted and the on-going conversation into which you inserted it and focus entirely and exclusively on your specific words.

Sector7G wrote:

If you want to decry the lack of cooperation among victims go right ahead, and talk all you want about cultural differences while you are at it, but it does not change that fact. I'm not sure why we are even debating this. Was it the term "flip side" that you object to?

You asked me some questions about my meaning and intent, and I've answered them. I don't think that's a debate, just clarification.

Sector7G wrote:

That's not an interpretation of the article - narrow, suggested, or otherwise. It's a statement of fact ...

But let's talk about the article anyway. You say you were responding to the "actual content", but if one went back and did a content analysis they would find it hard to justify your description of it as one that is "primarily about how alleged rape victims are often uncooperative."

The headline of the article was, "In campus rape cases, victim often blamed for failure to prosecute," it goes on to say, "Local prosecutors say uncooperative victims often stymie their efforts," in the introduction, it contains three separate anecdotal examples of such conduct in the second section of the article, and in the final section, discusses the extent to which victim hesistance plays a role or how such concerns can be circumvented, including the quotes like, "'Sometimes when we can get (the victims) to cooperate, they start feeling bad,' Peters said." In fact, as I read through this article again, primarily may have been understatement. But, if you read through that article and really feel like it's primarily talking about something else, that's fine.

Sector7G wrote:

But you are right - it does give information on why prosecutions are so low. Look for yourself - it's pretty evenly split between victims being uncooperative and the prosecutors not wanting to proceed and/or not being aggressive enough , and it also sounds like some are in the "uncooperative" category because the police pressure them to drop it.

What is described as pressure to drop a case is really more along the lines of an honest assessment of how likely success will be. But I'm willing to agree that that's part of the phenomenon (which is probably why I don't think it counts as "another topic"). Like I said, I think the conduct here is understandable; I can see how discouraging it must be to be raped, go to the police, and end up being told by a prosecutor that chances of success in court are extremely low. Indeed, such depressing circumstances are exactly why avoidance and prevention must be stressed.

Sector7G wrote:

Yes, I would object to describing it as wildly selfish, especially if they dropped it under pressure from and/or lack of aggressiveness by the police.

You know, upon reconsideration, I think you've got a reasonable point here. A victim who genuinely refuses to cooperate for purely emotional reasons (be they personal pain or beginning to "feel bad") is doing society a disservice, and such parties seem to exist, but it's really not fair to lump those who become hesitant after a discouraging meeting with a prosecutor or police officer into the same group. I think I did in fact carelessly do that here, and it was wrong.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:33 am Post subject:

littlelisa wrote:

I read through this thread and it's clear that everyone posting in here is a guy. You know it seems fewer and fewer women comment on this board anymore, but I think this is a real case of blindness due to male privilege. Luckily I have never been raped. But how come I know already so much about what a terrible experience it is for the vast majority of people to go to the police (or other groups, such as a college board) and report a rape, and you guys either have no idea, or forget or ignore the hassles?

Yes, even one false accusation can be devastating. But you know what, so is rape, and going through that and then not being believed and being accused of false accusations, being asked if you want to ruin your rapist's life, and having to recount the same terrible story over and over and being judged for it... that seems equally as bad. So clearly it's a bit more complex than "well, more people should just report it to the police". Given the hassles of reporting or talking about rape, the low percentage of false accusations, at least our immediate reaction shouldn't be one of doubt when someone tells you about rape, or when you hear of someone who said they were raped.

This post appears more balanced and appropriate with each passing post on this thread; indeed, the invocation of male privilege was totally justified.

geldedgoat

Joined: 05 Mar 2009

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:30 am Post subject:

Sector7G wrote:

Yes, I would object to describing it as wildly selfish, especially if they dropped it under pressure from and/or lack of aggressiveness by the police.

Sector7G's article wrote:

Peters said the lack of prosecution isn't based on poor police investigations.

"There's not a single case I can think of where I would go back and say, 'I can't believe that detective did that or did not do that,' " Peters said.

Instead, the inability to prosecute rests on other factors, she said, such as limited memories, societal pressures, the unwillingness of the victim, and the often contradictory accounts of accuser and accused.

Sector7G

Joined: 24 May 2008

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:41 am Post subject:

Sector7G wrote:

Yes, I would object to describing it as wildly selfish, especially if they dropped it under pressure from and/or lack of aggressiveness by the police.

Sector7G's article: wrote:

Also from Sector7G's article:

Quote:

Local prosecutors say uncooperative victims often stymie their efforts. Others like Cappleman and USF victim's advocate Nanci Newton question whether investigators place too much responsibility on victims as a way to avoid pursuing difficult cases.

National leaders are calling upon universities to do more, both to promote awareness of the issue and protect victims. The White House, after circulating statistics estimating that one in five college women will be sexually assaulted, issued a series of recommendations this year. USF, which already had some of the steps in place, will distribute its first climate survey to students this spring as a result. But some people worry that a lack of law enforcement aggressiveness might be undercutting their efforts.

geldedgoat

Joined: 05 Mar 2009

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:27 am Post subject:

Your article suggests that these people are unfamiliar with the law:

Quote:

Rita Peters, head of the sex crimes division, said the law prevents prosecutors from accessing confessions before they can prove a crime occurred.

"In order to get into the confession, I have to prove I had a sexual battery," Peters said. "If I have a victim that won't cooperate or move forward, I can't prove that."

You need not let your hypothetical trouble you.

Sector7G

Joined: 24 May 2008

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:52 am Post subject:

geldedgoat wrote:

Your article suggests that these people are unfamiliar with the law:

Quote:

Strange to see someone continually arguing against the same source used to push a claim.

You keep cherry picking quotes from the article to suit your needs. Anyway, I am not sure which claim you think I am pushing. It's not a surprise that cops will say they are doing all they can, but others can disagree. I'm not saying cops are always wrong, but they are not always right either. Are you familiar with the case of Heisman trophy winner Jameis Winston? Most people who have looked into it have said that the cops botched it - badly - including the DA who declined to prosecute.

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