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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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 Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
About 800 are unaccounted for, and officials believe they probably are/have returned to NK. |
If you've lived in poor conditions your entire life then you don't necessarily recognize them as bad, its just normality.
Look at how miserable most South Koreans are- but they're not all trying to move to another country, neither do they even realize that they are abnormally stressed out or that the overall quality of life here is low.
For the most part people live with the reality to hand and think nothing much about it. |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
If you've lived in poor conditions your entire life then you don't necessarily recognize them as bad, its just normality.
Look at how miserable most South Koreans are- but they're not all trying to move to another country, neither do they even realize that they are abnormally stressed out or that the overall quality of life here is low.
For the most part people live with the reality to hand and think nothing much about it. |
That's a questionable analysis for a couple of reasons.
First, with today's state of technology, and the prevalence of work-abroad programs in a global community, it is actually very easy to recognise how your country and your quality of life stacks up against others. If you don't experience it first-hand, you will hear about it from a multitude of sources.
As I said, even the North Koreans my friend talked to, from black market stall operators to random people in the subway station knew their country lagged far behind others.
Second, immigration restrictions in countries Koreans consider more 'desirable' than Korea make it next to impossible to establish residency unless you have hundreds of thousands of dollars to invest. Canada for example has all but axed the family class visa.
South Koreans in general may be stressed out, but they have sufficient economic and social freedom to weigh off the costs, including a lack of transferable professional certification and language skills that are required to even begin thinking of opting to emigrate. And, why would 'ALL' Koreans have to be moving to other countries to make the point that they are aware of how miserable they are? That makes no sense. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Why do North Korean Athletes Never Defect? |
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| MedellinHeel wrote: |
Would you deflect if you knew your mother, father, wife, kids, etc would be killed, tortured, and/or impressioned?
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Actually, that might be a selling point... |
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Stan Rogers
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
If you've lived in poor conditions your entire life then you don't necessarily recognize them as bad, its just normality.
Look at how miserable most South Koreans are- but they're not all trying to move to another country, neither do they even realize that they are abnormally stressed out or that the overall quality of life here is low.
For the most part people live with the reality to hand and think nothing much about it. |
That's a questionable analysis for a couple of reasons.
First, with today's state of technology, and the prevalence of work-abroad programs in a global community, it is actually very easy to recognise how your country and your quality of life stacks up against others. If you don't experience it first-hand, you will hear about it from a multitude of sources.
As I said, even the North Koreans my friend talked to, from black market stall operators to random people in the subway station knew their country lagged far behind others.
Second, immigration restrictions in countries Koreans consider more 'desirable' than Korea make it next to impossible to establish residency unless you have hundreds of thousands of dollars to invest. Canada for example has all but axed the family class visa.
South Koreans in general may be stressed out, but they have sufficient economic and social freedom to weigh off the costs, including a lack of transferable professional certification and language skills that are required to even begin thinking of opting to emigrate. And, why would 'ALL' Koreans have to be moving to other countries to make the point that they are aware of how miserable they are? That makes no sense. |
Lots of South Koreans have a great quality of life by the huge rise in their net worth resulting from the increase in property values over a generation. It sounds like the previous poster hangs out with poor Koreans. |
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Stan Rogers
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Why do North Korean Athletes Never Defect? |
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| MedellinHeel wrote: |
| Stan Rogers wrote: |
| Any ideas on that? Lots of other communist countries have had many top star athletes defect for a shot at the big money pro sports offer. With the Asian Games going on in Korea you'd think at least one would do it. I don't think I've ever heard of a North Korean jumping ship like that. |
Would you deflect if you knew your mother, father, wife, kids, etc would be killed, tortured, and/or impressioned?
I wouldn't.
Easy question after you think about it for a minute. |
That question is impossible for me to answer becasue I don't live in those circumstances. However, many communist athletes have defected in the past understanding those threats. My point is that only the North Korean athletes don't defect. And I'm trying to understand why because others have done it knowing the threats and risks involved. |
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FDNY
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Why do North Korean Athletes Never Defect? |
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| MedellinHeel wrote: |
| Would you deflect if you knew your mother, father, wife, kids, etc would be killed, tortured, and/or impressioned? |
I would defect if it was only my wife who would be tortured and imprisoned. |
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Stan Rogers
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Why do North Korean Athletes Never Defect? |
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| FDNY wrote: |
| MedellinHeel wrote: |
| Would you deflect if you knew your mother, father, wife, kids, etc would be killed, tortured, and/or impressioned? |
I would defect if it was only my wife who would be tortured and imprisoned. |
LOL |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| crescent wrote: |
One of my best friends has done two one-month volunteer teaching terms in and around Pyongyang, as well as a 2 week government sponsored tour . Not only was he not incessantly monitored in his comings and goings, he was free to roam around almost anywhere he wanted to go.
Western propaganda will have you believe it is a nation where the majority of people are brainwashed, starving scavengers. That's simply not true. Most North Koreans are well aware that they lag behind the rest of the world and that they have serious resource allocation and infrastructure problems. But the reality of things, and what our governments would like us to believe do not overlap very much. (According to what he saw and who he spoke with) |
I don't know, this seems to dovetail pretty well with the books I've read on the subject. Escape from Camp 14 covered the camps, where it's possible that people kind of don't know what the hell is going on in the outside world. Nothing to Envy and Under the Care of the Fatherly Leader, however, are both pretty deliberate in saying that whatever real effect the brainwashing might have had dissipated dramatically following the fall of the Soviet Union and the subsequent hardships faced by the DPRK's citizens. I also don't think you can blame Western governments and media for creating this brainwashed image when the Norks pull Potemkin village shit whenever a camera is present (anyone see the Vice episode with the room full of people who didn't know how to use a computer?). |
You've got to take anything NK defector says about NK with a grain of salt. Because they all have their own agenda. The writers of the books you've mentioned only benefit from making NK look as bad as possible. I'm sure they're telling the truth, from their perspective. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
^
Oh, I'm sure there exist plenty of real examples of horrid conditions and treatment in NK, just as they exist anywhere else. |
Anywhere?
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| Most of those accounts from NK refugees are quite old, however. |
Nope. Many are very recent. If you ever have time try reading Escape from Camp 14
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| I wouldn't trust our governments to honestly record accounts of what NK refugees say. |
Even the UN report?
So what it being lied about specifically The prison labor camps? Refugees caught in China being returned to face torture? |
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Lucas
Joined: 11 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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I wouldn't trust our governments to honestly record accounts of what NK refugees say.
Even the UN report? |
Who's the Secretary-General of the UN again?  |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
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| Anyways, I once was an advocate to isolate North Korea until the brink of collapse. But after watching a few outspoken businessmen talk, I believe the best way to expedite the end of NK, is SK just open up the border. NK would probably collapse within days, if not hours after the border opens up. And businesses from a number of powerful countries would be salivating at the amount of money they'd make off of building infrastructure in NK. |
Except North Korea would also have to open up the border too. Fat chance of that happening. It isn't like the West was keeping Eastern Europeans out during the Cold War. Once Hungary let its citizens travel, then the flood and collapse of Communist Europe began. |
No they don't. And extremely unlikely they'd attack, because that would probably be the end of them. At the least it will have the NK guards on the border with stories they might tell to their family and friends. And news from the Chinese side about SK opening their border would stream in pretty fast.
If wacko South Korean wants to cross, let them, and let them back in if they are allowed to by NK. No more 'debriefings' of defectors. If unarmed North Koreans wants in, let them and issue them a registration number, and if they want cross back, let them. If a boat load of people land ashore on the southern side, give them registration numbers and let them be on their way.
If nobody crosses, great nothing changes. But the symbolism can be very powerful. |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| crescent wrote: |
^
Oh, I'm sure there exist plenty of real examples of horrid conditions and treatment in NK, just as they exist anywhere else. |
Anywhere?
| Quote: |
| Most of those accounts from NK refugees are quite old, however. |
Nope. Many are very recent. If you ever have time try reading Escape from Camp 14
| Quote: |
| I wouldn't trust our governments to honestly record accounts of what NK refugees say. |
Even the UN report?
So what it being lied about specifically The prison labor camps? Refugees caught in China being returned to face torture? |
Whoa. I thought we were talking about the day-to-day living conditions in NK society? Even regarding the accounts of prison escapees, most of them are in fact quite dated. It takes many years for them to work their way through China until the are able to be heard. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Anyways, I once was an advocate to isolate North Korea until the brink of collapse. But after watching a few outspoken businessmen talk, I believe the best way to expedite the end of NK, is SK just open up the border. NK would probably collapse within days, if not hours after the border opens up. And businesses from a number of powerful countries would be salivating at the amount of money they'd make off of building infrastructure in NK. |
Except North Korea would also have to open up the border too. Fat chance of that happening. It isn't like the West was keeping Eastern Europeans out during the Cold War. Once Hungary let its citizens travel, then the flood and collapse of Communist Europe began. |
No they don't. And extremely unlikely they'd attack, because that would probably be the end of them. At the least it will have the NK guards on the border with stories they might tell to their family and friends. And news from the Chinese side about SK opening their border would stream in pretty fast.
If wacko South Korean wants to cross, let them, and let them back in if they are allowed to by NK. No more 'debriefings' of defectors. If unarmed North Koreans wants in, let them and issue them a registration number, and if they want cross back, let them. If a boat load of people land ashore on the southern side, give them registration numbers and let them be on their way.
If nobody crosses, great nothing changes. But the symbolism can be very powerful. |
No they don't? How else are people going to get into and leave north korea without the North Korean government allowing them in/out? Sure, the border with China isn't secured, but the one with South Korea sure sa hell is.
And why wouldn't north korean soldiers fire upon any nut that tried to enter the country on his/her own?
You're not making any sense and it pretty much runs contrary to what happened during the Cold War in Europe. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Anyways, I once was an advocate to isolate North Korea until the brink of collapse. But after watching a few outspoken businessmen talk, I believe the best way to expedite the end of NK, is SK just open up the border. NK would probably collapse within days, if not hours after the border opens up. And businesses from a number of powerful countries would be salivating at the amount of money they'd make off of building infrastructure in NK. |
Except North Korea would also have to open up the border too. Fat chance of that happening. It isn't like the West was keeping Eastern Europeans out during the Cold War. Once Hungary let its citizens travel, then the flood and collapse of Communist Europe began. |
No they don't. And extremely unlikely they'd attack, because that would probably be the end of them. At the least it will have the NK guards on the border with stories they might tell to their family and friends. And news from the Chinese side about SK opening their border would stream in pretty fast.
If wacko South Korean wants to cross, let them, and let them back in if they are allowed to by NK. No more 'debriefings' of defectors. If unarmed North Koreans wants in, let them and issue them a registration number, and if they want cross back, let them. If a boat load of people land ashore on the southern side, give them registration numbers and let them be on their way.
If nobody crosses, great nothing changes. But the symbolism can be very powerful. |
No they don't? How else are people going to get into and leave north korea without the North Korean government allowing them in/out? Sure, the border with China isn't secured, but the one with South Korea sure sa hell is.
And why wouldn't north korean soldiers fire upon any nut that tried to enter the country on his/her own?
You're not making any sense and it pretty much runs contrary to what happened during the Cold War in Europe. |
The land border isn't the only way, boats easily cross all the time for fishing, and cross back. Also, you really think no NK solider along the border won't cross? And if a NK solider fires upon a nut trying to enter NK, then it just makes the North look worse.
Anyways it's the symbolism that is more important than if anyone actually crosses. And SK has nothing to lose by opening the border. SK can say that they support unification with that open border as proof, and ask why doesn't NK follow suit... |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
| crescent wrote: |
^
Oh, I'm sure there exist plenty of real examples of horrid conditions and treatment in NK, just as they exist anywhere else. |
Anywhere?
| Quote: |
| Most of those accounts from NK refugees are quite old, however. |
Nope. Many are very recent. If you ever have time try reading Escape from Camp 14
| Quote: |
| I wouldn't trust our governments to honestly record accounts of what NK refugees say. |
Even the UN report?
So what it being lied about specifically The prison labor camps? Refugees caught in China being returned to face torture? |
Whoa. I thought we were talking about the day-to-day living conditions in NK society? Even regarding the accounts of prison escapees, most of them are in fact quite dated. It takes many years for them to work their way through China until the are able to be heard. |
So? |
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