Korean Job Discussion Forums

[crashlanding]

Korean universities are trying more aggressively to hire academics from abroad, but wages remain lower and only a fraction are offering tenure.

http://expatnewswire.com/news/2014/12/04/robust-hiring-at-korean-universities-but-tenure-track-elusive-for-expats/

[tob55]

The article is quite misleading and really doesn't discuss the real issue. The primary reason most expats are not hired to tenure positions is because they are generally contract employees, which according to Korean labor standards means you are a part-time employee. Additionally, most expats hired as "foreign visiting professor" are given the title in name only. The hiring group is usually a 'language institute' that is not a formal department of the University. This means that the people hired and given contracts with the University President's proxy signature are merely glorified hagwon workers (no slam to hagwon people, I have my own).

As it concerns negotiating power and faculty connections there are NONE. Foreign visiting professors have no campus voting privileges as part of the academic faculty. They are not involved in regular department meetings in the given department where they are assigned to work. They are often sent to work in the various departments of their University simply through a contractual agreement between the language institute and the specific department that requests their services. This is in spite of the fact that office space is provided to the foreign staff in a given department. The language institute hired the foreign staff out to the highest bidder for their services.

Basically anyone working as a visiting foreign professor is for all purposes nothing more than a hagwon worker on a university campus. I know this because I did my homework to find out this information at the current place of employment for a National University. Of course the directors of the language institutes or whatever they call their self are not going to be open and share this information, but the reality is just this.

To receive a full tenure track position requires a great deal of help from someone who knows the ways into the system. It seems like the more hurdles you cross over the more they put up in your way to prevent this from happening for foreigners, but it can be done. Most professors tell the foreign staff they earn way more than that the average Korean tenured professor, but that is flat out not true. The average starting salary for a tenure track professor I have been told by a professor I can trust is more than twice the amount of the current 2.5 ~ 2.7 mil most foreign staff receive. It is a very closed system, and the tenured professors are not very open or willing to let others in from what I was told as well.

So, a word to the wise, 'visiting foreign professor' is only a title. The article is not going to change this fact or make it untrue. If you happen to be in a university position where you are allowed to teach something other than English conversation and writing, then it is most likely because your credentials allow you to do it, but you are still receiving the pittance wages because you are a teacher in their eyes and NOT a professor. Check it out for yourself and you will discover what took me three years to finally find out. BTW I have been at my current position for five years, just because nothing better has come up, and the place I live is suitable. Cheers

[Chaparrastique]

[Malislamusrex]

tob55, I disagree.

Everyone knows I'm a professor of conversational English. I can drop that in any circumstance and the rest of the school is in awe. All the other professors want to be me, and the assistants want to be with me.

[Shimokitazawa]

[Weigookin74]

If an English professor probably so. If in some other high expertise field, prob not such a good deal. Had a lawyer friend working in Seoul for a couple of years and the unviersity wouldn't give him tenure even though he had an F5. Went to a smaller city university and they gave him tenure. Paid him well too. He worked in the law department. Said some old ajossi professors didn't like his prescence there but the younger professors were decent. Think after several years though he decided to go back to me gook and re start his law career. Even with the good pay and low work hours, I think Korea just began to grind on him.

Anyways, if in a technical field of some sort, a real professor should demand tenure or tell these schools to eff off and not come here. A real professor isn't going to leave their job in the US, Canada, or where ever to come over here for a temporary postition and to be treated like half a human being. Koreans are dumb sometimes.

[PRagic]

ton55 may be comparing apples to oranges if the comments refer to MA holding foreign ESL instructors and their positions compared to positions held by Ph.D. holding faculty (of any nationality) in tenure track slots. Even those with PhDs who enter or stay in ESL teaching slots, whether Korean or foreign, will seldom be given a shot at the tenure track. The jobs are simply different.

And by definition, ANY visiting or adjunct faculty member will not be part of the administrative hierarchy in departments, colleges, and universities. No conspiracy there.

Speaking from experience, I can tell you that salaries and benefits are EXACTLY the same for foreign and native Ph.D. holders holding similar tenure track positions. I've been on the tenure track for several years at more than one university and this has remained consistent.

Vacancies are widely advertised and the selection process is transparent and competitive, or at least it is where I work. Heck, I chaired the last hiring committee and that resulted in the hire of another foreign scholar!

I'm not an apologist, and have consistently said that Korean universities are still working out some pretty big kinks when it comes to hiring (and keeping) foreign staff. But let's be sure to draw appropriate comparisons and to keep an open mind when insider stories come to light. Conjecture and conspiracy theories don't help to fix anything.

[tob55]

[PRagic]

Congrats on knocking out your doctorate. And, yup, you can't compare any university institute or even departmental ESL teaching position to those positions with tenure track opportunities. That has long been the case and nothing will probably be changing any time soon.

Not sure of your dicipline, but if it's related to teaching English, your best bet would be to shoot for tenure track positions in colleges of education, specifically in English Education departments. These are the jobs where you'd be teaching future teachers and researchers, and will entail full departmental responsibilities (meetings and decision making; thesis and dissertation guidance, etc...).

If you land one of these jobs, everything is equal across the board concerning pay, funding, and promotion (even to full tenure). Honestly, I know a TON of foreign profs here in Korea with tenure track jobs (or tenured) in too many diciplines to list. I agree that opportunities are not as plentiful as we'd like to see, and that some universities are more proactive than others, but in general things are improving as time goes by.

Hope that things roll your way.

[PRagic]

@Weigookin74

Even 'real' professors cannot simply demand tenure; it's a process that takes many years to complete. Junior scholars (newly minted Ph.D.s, those fresh off a post doc, or perhaps those who decide to move after a year or two at some university 'back home') come in at the assistant professor rank, and much as anywhere else in academe, they're given a contract that covers them up until they go for promotion review to the associate professor level.

Then, once promoted to associate professor, it all begins again. You're given another contract, but this time it's a bit longer in duration to cover the time to the next stage of promotion (and tenure review). It works the same way at N. American universities. Smaller, private schools are more apt to grant tenure at this level IF a case has merit, and many of the larger universities here have adjusted to make obtaining tenure at this rank possible, BUT, for the most part, tenure is granted along with promotion to full professor at Korean universities.

Most 'real professors' who do leave positions in the west to come here are moving before they are up for tenure review. It is generally agreed upon that one should move before one gets tenure for a variety of reasons. So once here, they're back on the road to tenure IF they accept a tenure track position. Most Korean universities will count your time in tenure track toward your promotions and tenure review here, but in N. America you can very well lose a year or two if and when you change jobs. In short, though, you can't go from a tenure TRACK job in the west to 'demanding tenure' when you get here if you don't have the requisite publications and professional experience.

You are correct in saying that nobody would normally leave a tenured position to come here if they weren't given tenure upon arrival. I've only met one person who did that, but they did so because they genuinely wanted to work in Korea. I've met quite a few more senior scholars who came here as senior associate professors with a strong CV, and they were all promoted to full professor with full tenure in due course (or came in with promotion to full professor and then were reviewed for full tenure shortly afterwards).

Few, given the choice, do come here for visiting positions. You always want to be on the tenure track, because if you're not, you're pretty much just spinning your professional wheels. Years of work, if not on the tenure track, usually don't count toward tenure, after all!

[GENO123]

[tob55]

[Weigookin74]

[PRagic]

Sure, but, again, you won't be offered tenure unless you have the publications and professional experience at the post doc level to qualify, and that's pretty much the same the world over. Your dicipline doesn't matter.

I've already met a few scholars over here who didn't make it to the next promotion because they didn't publish so they're packing their bags and hoping they can get another shot somewhere else. If they don't perform at their next gig, it's pretty much a career breaker. A couple of people I know are now sweating having the points to make their next promotion so their working like crazy trying to get publications in SSCI journals pushed through. One scholar came in from a huge, well known school in the US, but he didn't publish while there, so he didn't make promotion or tenure and was shown the door. Great guy, but he had too many other irons in the fire and didn't prioritize. He knows that he needs to get on the stick while here if he wants to get promoted and eventually get tenure, or at least get promoted, sock away some publications, and then hope for another shot somewhere else.

Your friend had real world legal experience, but that won't get you tenure at any R1 university, sorry to say. Might get you hired, especially if you were an ADA or a DA, but then you'd have to start getting your publications out there to stay in the game. Sounds like he did a bang up job.

If you have your Ph.D. and your requisite number of publications to get hired, you will recieve pay here that is about on par with most big R! state universities in the US give or take. I say 'give or take' because some big programs (flag ship state universities or large private universities) in the US and Canada pay quite well, but then you get a kick in the nut sack from taxes. If you're just talking about how much coin I have at the end of the month when all is said and done, I'd probably be taking a pay cut if I went back to N. America now.

The pressure to publish is different from place to place, and that goes for funding, too. I was just in a lunch meeting with some visiting scholars and they were talking about a system being put into place in Europe where they rate you annually on how much external funding you bring in. Agressive programs want a minimum of 2 SCI/SSCI publications a year. Considering the fact that it can take anywhere from one to three years to see just one publication through (AFTER it has been initially researched, written, and submitted!), think about how many projects you need to have going simultaneously to pull that off! Believe me, you're ALWAYS thinking about your next grant and your next data set or acquisition effor, and your next article.

Add to that the MA and Ph.D. guidance, administration duties, committees, conference organizing and attendance, and you get the picture. Not complaining here as I chose this job and it suits me just fine. Just trying to paint a vivid picture so that people stop trying to draw comparisons between instructors and professors, whether in terms of pay and conditions, or perceived slights at the work place.

[PRagic]

Oh, and I was going to add one more thing. Sure, you could 'demand tenure', but if you don't plan on being here for the long haul, what good is it? Believe me when I tell you that there is VERY little in terms of a pay hike that comes with tenure, or even most promotions for that matter.

Most schools won't want to give an unknown entity tenure unless they're pretty sure that they're going to be productive. Why would they? What's to stop someone coming in, demanding tenure, getting it, and then just f-ing off in a comparatively high pay grade.

That's why when we apply for jobs, they really scrutinize your research agenda and funding record. They don't want to go through the trouble of hiring someone only to have to can them in a few years. THAT is almost a universal.