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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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 Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:22 am Post subject: Turtleship fantasy sinks |
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Goodbye to the idea that Koreans invented armoured warships.
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According to Hawley, however, the Japanese phrase does not necessarily mean the vessels were covered with iron plates; it could simply refer to the iron spikes protruding from their roofs.[27] In fact, contemporary Korean sources do not support the claim that the turtle ships were ironclad:[28][29] Admiral Yi Sun-Sin, the purported inventor himself, refers in his memoirs only to "iron spikes on its back to pierce the enemies feet when they tried to board", but does not mention any iron plating.[28] Likewise Yi Pun, his nephew and war reporter, mentions in his lengthy war memoirs only "iron spikes" on the deck,[28] and the annals of king Seonjo, a comprehensive collection of official documents of the period, are silent, too, about any ironcladding.[28] Korean Prime Minister Yu Seong-ryong described the turtle ship explicitly as "covered by wooden planks on top".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-industrial_armoured_ships |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:06 am Post subject: Re: Turtleship fantasy sinks |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
Goodbye to the idea that Koreans invented armoured warships.
| Quote: |
According to Hawley, however, the Japanese phrase does not necessarily mean the vessels were covered with iron plates; it could simply refer to the iron spikes protruding from their roofs.[27] In fact, contemporary Korean sources do not support the claim that the turtle ships were ironclad:[28][29] Admiral Yi Sun-Sin, the purported inventor himself, refers in his memoirs only to "iron spikes on its back to pierce the enemies feet when they tried to board", but does not mention any iron plating.[28] Likewise Yi Pun, his nephew and war reporter, mentions in his lengthy war memoirs only "iron spikes" on the deck,[28] and the annals of king Seonjo, a comprehensive collection of official documents of the period, are silent, too, about any ironcladding.[28] Korean Prime Minister Yu Seong-ryong described the turtle ship explicitly as "covered by wooden planks on top".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-industrial_armoured_ships |
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"Does not necessarily mean... it could simply refer to"... in other words maybe yes, and maybe no.
And that Prime Minister doesn't describe the iron spikes, does that mean the spikes were not installed?
If the captain of the battleship USS Missouri says the ship has nine 16-inch guns on deck, it doesn't mean that there isn't a crap load of other armament on board. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:18 am Post subject: Re: Turtleship fantasy sinks |
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| guavashake wrote: |
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
Goodbye to the idea that Koreans invented armoured warships.
| Quote: |
According to Hawley, however, the Japanese phrase does not necessarily mean the vessels were covered with iron plates; it could simply refer to the iron spikes protruding from their roofs.[27] In fact, contemporary Korean sources do not support the claim that the turtle ships were ironclad:[28][29] Admiral Yi Sun-Sin, the purported inventor himself, refers in his memoirs only to "iron spikes on its back to pierce the enemies feet when they tried to board", but does not mention any iron plating.[28] Likewise Yi Pun, his nephew and war reporter, mentions in his lengthy war memoirs only "iron spikes" on the deck,[28] and the annals of king Seonjo, a comprehensive collection of official documents of the period, are silent, too, about any ironcladding.[28] Korean Prime Minister Yu Seong-ryong described the turtle ship explicitly as "covered by wooden planks on top".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-industrial_armoured_ships |
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"Does not necessarily mean... it could simply refer to"... in other words maybe yes, and maybe no.
And that Prime Minister doesn't describe the iron spikes, does that mean the spikes were not installed?
If the captain of the battleship USS Missouri says the ship has nine 16-inch guns on deck, it doesn't mean that there isn't a crap load of other armament on board. |
I think what he was saying is that koreans as usual, probably dont know the difference between fact or fiction, truth or lies as its pretty much the same thing to them as their moral compass has been demagnetised for so very long.
Anyway, im not a naval expert, but from what I understand of the battles involved in this period, Yi out manoeuvred the Japanese vessels using the tide and general design of his ships.
If they were clad out with a shit load of metal, that would have been less likely as for example the Romans vs the Gauls during Caesars invasion of gaul - and they were only clad with more wood. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:50 am Post subject: Re: Turtleship fantasy sinks |
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| guavashake wrote: |
"Does not necessarily mean... it could simply refer to"... in other words maybe yes, and maybe no. |
Either way, the Japanese had made iron-clad warships 20 years earlier. Likely they were the inspiration for the Korean ships:
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| In 1578, the Japanese daimyo Oda Nobunaga had made six Atakebune (大安宅船) which were called, according to one source, Tekkōsen (鉄甲船|鉄甲船), literally meaning "iron ships".[20] implying that their superstructure may have been reinforced with iron plates against cannon and fire arrows.[20] These vessels, more floating batteries than ships, were armed with multiple cannons and large caliber arquebuses, and were described by the Italian Jesuit Organtino as being protected by iron plates two to three inches thick |
| Le-Paul wrote: |
| I think what he was saying is that koreans as usual, probably dont know the difference between fact or fiction, truth or lies as its pretty much the same thing to them as their moral compass has been demagnetised for so very long. |
That, and the fact that most Koreans seem to actually believe their own propaganda.
Generally, they're very shoddy scholars. They're not objectively pursuing facts, they're pursuing a selective re-interpretation that fits their racist/ nationalist agenda.
Most nationalities are fascinated to explore the reality of their history- warts and all- but Koreans are content to settle for self-deception. |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:31 am Post subject: |
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1:55 to 2:38 is my favorite part. Hilarious... |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Turtleship fantasy sinks |
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| le-paul wrote: |
| guavashake wrote: |
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
Goodbye to the idea that Koreans invented armoured warships.
| Quote: |
According to Hawley, however, the Japanese phrase does not necessarily mean the vessels were covered with iron plates; it could simply refer to the iron spikes protruding from their roofs.[27] In fact, contemporary Korean sources do not support the claim that the turtle ships were ironclad:[28][29] Admiral Yi Sun-Sin, the purported inventor himself, refers in his memoirs only to "iron spikes on its back to pierce the enemies feet when they tried to board", but does not mention any iron plating.[28] Likewise Yi Pun, his nephew and war reporter, mentions in his lengthy war memoirs only "iron spikes" on the deck,[28] and the annals of king Seonjo, a comprehensive collection of official documents of the period, are silent, too, about any ironcladding.[28] Korean Prime Minister Yu Seong-ryong described the turtle ship explicitly as "covered by wooden planks on top".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-industrial_armoured_ships |
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"Does not necessarily mean... it could simply refer to"... in other words maybe yes, and maybe no.
And that Prime Minister doesn't describe the iron spikes, does that mean the spikes were not installed?
If the captain of the battleship USS Missouri says the ship has nine 16-inch guns on deck, it doesn't mean that there isn't a crap load of other armament on board. |
I think what he was saying is that koreans as usual, probably dont know the difference between fact or fiction, truth or lies as its pretty much the same thing to them as their moral compass has been demagnetised for so very long.
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I don't think that's what Hawley is saying. I think that's what YOU are saying. I think what Hawley is saying is what he is saying.
Given that there are multiple descriptions, it is possible that both are correct. Shipbuilding back then might not have been the most uniform of undertakings and individual ships might have had individual outfittings. The amount of iron necessary makes Hawley's analysis likely correct, however it is possible that one of the ships, under command of a successful or enterprising captain, or perhaps the flagship, might have been outfitted with armor plates.
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| Generally, they're very shoddy scholars. They're not objectively pursuing facts, they're pursuing a selective re-interpretation that fits their racist/ nationalist agenda. |
Pot calling the kettle black? |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| Iron cladding a ship requires a lot of steel and Korea was a subsistence level feudal country. The first ironclad warships the Union Moniter and the Confederate Merrimac occurred in the Industrial era. |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| young_clinton wrote: |
| Iron cladding a ship requires a lot of steel and Korea was a subsistence level feudal country. The first ironclad warships the Union Moniter and the Confederate Merrimac occurred in the Industrial era. |
I don't think iron cladding requires steel. I think iron cladding requires iron. Anyway, maybe they used spam cans. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| guavashake wrote: |
I don't think iron cladding requires steel. I think iron cladding requires iron. Anyway, maybe they used spam cans. |
Who cares what it takes, start being reasonable. Iron or steel in Korea at that age was not easy to get in large amounts. |
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