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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Eliot read mystery novels and played solitaire to relax. Even poets need some everyman entertainment. |
That's true, everyone engages in some easy, passive entertainment at times, and there's nothing necessarily wrong with it. Remember, my focus was on contrasting "forms of entertainment uplift and improve us" with those that "excite and draw out the worst in us." Something like solitaire would probably fall into a neutral third category, perhaps beneficial in the same way that rest is beneficial, but having little impact on our development as human beings for better or worse. Trivial as a yawn is trivial, but sometimes one feels like yawning. |
I'd say a statement like "boxing draws out the worst in us" is an over-generalization. There's no reason that boxing cannot teach some of the same lessons that other disciplines do and that one cannot view a boxing match without getting caught up in blood lust. For some, catharsis may even be involved, to get all Aristotelian.
It doesn't necessarily take much courage to read or write a poem, something that boxing can teach young men and women. It's highly possible that one could learn more from boxing, especially as a participant, than one could from reading and participating in this forum. IMO, of course.  |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
There is the idea that competitive sports, including violent ones like boxing or football, serve as a proxy for actual violent competition, and help channel those impulses in a more constructive manner for both the participant and the viewer. It must be serving some kind of human need to appear in so many societies over time. |
I see what you're trying to say, and I'm not even necessarily going to disagree with it. Instead, I'm going to take it and use it to support my own case. When does a sport improve us as people? Surely it's when we play it rather than watch it: there are real benefits to both physical and mental health to be had from playing sports, to say nothing of the potential psychological benefits. From such a position, it is not necessarily admirable to be good at a sport so much as a sport is worthwhile to the extent that it improves its practitioners (which boxing in particular does not seem to do, given the likelihood of ending up brain damaged). But just sitting and watching it? Perhaps it appeals to something in man's heart, but it doesn't seem to improve him, and that something may not necessarily be laudable. |
The idea most certainly extends to the watchers. Improve might not be the right word, but it seems humans have the need to develop strong group identities, feel that their group is superior, and prove it through competition. Forming that identity through sports subverts and channels the potentially aggressive impulses to yelling at a tv or dressing up in team colors at a stadium and treating athletes as war heros. I think it is absurd, but even in Thucydides he goes on about how someone was an Olympian and got extra respect from the Greeks, so this passive watching has been going on for quite awhile. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
The idea most certainly extends to the watchers. Improve might not be the right word, but it seems humans have the need to develop strong group identities, feel that their group is superior, and prove it through competition. |
You are correct, what you are describing here is not improvement, which is why anything which exacerbates the tendency in question is worth concern, especially if the purpose of the exacerbation is profit. Your mention of the Greeks is interesting. You suggest that sports watching somehow redirects (and thus mitigates) aggressive behavior, yet the sports-watching Greeks warred frequently enough among themselves. And what of phenomena like football hooliganism? Humans having a certain tendency does not necessitate that tendency be healthy or beneficial, does it? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
The idea most certainly extends to the watchers. Improve might not be the right word, but it seems humans have the need to develop strong group identities, feel that their group is superior, and prove it through competition. |
You are correct, what you are describing here is not improvement, which is why anything which exacerbates the tendency in question is worth concern, especially if the purpose of the exacerbation is profit. Your mention of the Greeks is interesting. You suggest that sports watching somehow redirects (and thus mitigates) aggressive behavior, yet the sports-watching Greeks warred frequently enough among themselves. And what of phenomena like football hooliganism? Humans having a certain tendency does not necessitate that tendency be healthy or beneficial, does it? |
It's a question of whether it exacerbates it or channels it, I guess. I think the tendency is not necessarily beneficial or healthy- although it might serve adaptive purposes (i.e. groups forming strong identities more likely to survive)- but it is undeniably there, so has to be managed somehow. I do not completely buy this theory myself, I came upon when I was doing research on the Russian mafia and it turned out that a very large percentage were former sportsmen who lost state sponsorship and prestige, and an interesting case was made that the state was using sports to channel, manage, and control violence and competition for the sportsmen themselves and the spectators. I'm simply making the case that sports has a much bigger effect on our society than you allow for, and the absence of sports figures and heroes would be noticeable, although I'm not sure what that would look like.
As to the greeks, my impression is that sports gave a warlike group of polities a way to interact in a safe place and compete against each other in a highly formalized manner and helped form a clear hellenic identity even as they went around killing each other. |
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Shimokitazawa
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:51 am Post subject: |
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I'm now beginning to wonder how much child sexual assault is going on in Hollywood. For example, all of those child stars from the 70s and 80s that are supremely fucked up, or dead.
I don't recall where I read this, but there were allegations years ago that there was a lot of pedophilia occurring in Hollywood, specifically with young male actors. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| I do not completely buy this theory myself, I came upon when I was doing research on the Russian mafia and it turned out that a very large percentage were former sportsmen who lost state sponsorship and prestige, and an interesting case was made that the state was using sports to channel, manage, and control violence and competition for the sportsmen themselves and the spectators. |
Can you direct me to an article in which this position is argued? I'd like to see it.
| Leon wrote: |
| I'm simply making the case that sports has a much bigger effect on our society than you allow for, and the absence of sports figures and heroes would be noticeable, although I'm not sure what that would look like. |
Remember what I actually said, though: "Remove all the boxers from your city and the results will be somewhere between negligible and positive." I'm allowing for the possibility that sports celebrity may have a real effect on our society, I simply suspect it will be a negative effect. That's why I'd like to see the article you mentioned: it sounds like a relevant challenge. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Boxing is passe now anyway. It's all K1 this and UFC that - sports even more violent than boxing. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| I do not completely buy this theory myself, I came upon when I was doing research on the Russian mafia and it turned out that a very large percentage were former sportsmen who lost state sponsorship and prestige, and an interesting case was made that the state was using sports to channel, manage, and control violence and competition for the sportsmen themselves and the spectators. |
Can you direct me to an article in which this position is argued? I'd like to see it.
| Leon wrote: |
| I'm simply making the case that sports has a much bigger effect on our society than you allow for, and the absence of sports figures and heroes would be noticeable, although I'm not sure what that would look like. |
Remember what I actually said, though: "Remove all the boxers from your city and the results will be somewhere between negligible and positive." I'm allowing for the possibility that sports celebrity may have a real effect on our society, I simply suspect it will be a negative effect. That's why I'd like to see the article you mentioned: it sounds like a relevant challenge. |
Unfortunately the argument I am thinking of is made in a book, not an article, and it was a library book, so I can't even cite it for you. Anyways The argument is made somewhere in the first two chapters of the book Violent Entrepreneurs by Vadim Volkov, which is a good book, but probably not easy to find in Korea. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
http://nation19.com/wilhelmina-model-paid-to-destroy-bill-cosby-comes-forward/
Wilhelmina Model offered $15,000 to Destroy Bill Cosby Comes Forward! |
Did you read that article?
But yeah....seems anything that anyone wants to say on the topic is fair game for the media.
The sheer lack of integrity shown in the media on this subject is disheartening. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
http://nation19.com/wilhelmina-model-paid-to-destroy-bill-cosby-comes-forward/
Wilhelmina Model offered $15,000 to Destroy Bill Cosby Comes Forward! |
Did you read that article?
But yeah....seems anything that anyone wants to say on the topic is fair game for the media.
The sheer lack of integrity shown in the media on this subject is disheartening. |
6 megamedia companies control almost 90 percent of everythng in America you see on tv, listen on the radio, read in a newspaper or magazne, provides your access to cable tv, etc. its not a surprise. For real news about America you need to go outside of America for any real insight. That or independent online sources. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
http://nation19.com/wilhelmina-model-paid-to-destroy-bill-cosby-comes-forward/
Wilhelmina Model offered $15,000 to Destroy Bill Cosby Comes Forward! |
Did you read that article?
But yeah....seems anything that anyone wants to say on the topic is fair game for the media.
The sheer lack of integrity shown in the media on this subject is disheartening. |
6 megamedia companies control almost 90 percent of everythng in America you see on tv, listen on the radio, read in a newspaper or magazne, provides your access to cable tv, etc. its not a surprise. For real news about America you need to go outside of America for any real insight. That or independent online sources. |
What brand of tin foll do you recommend for protective headgear? |
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candy bar
Joined: 03 Dec 2012
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
http://nation19.com/wilhelmina-model-paid-to-destroy-bill-cosby-comes-forward/
Wilhelmina Model offered $15,000 to Destroy Bill Cosby Comes Forward! |
Did you read that article?
But yeah....seems anything that anyone wants to say on the topic is fair game for the media.
The sheer lack of integrity shown in the media on this subject is disheartening. |
6 megamedia companies control almost 90 percent of everythng in America you see on tv, listen on the radio, read in a newspaper or magazne, provides your access to cable tv, etc. its not a surprise. For real news about America you need to go outside of America for any real insight. That or independent online sources. |
What brand of tin foll do you recommend for protective headgear? |
Mr. black has some issues. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
http://nation19.com/wilhelmina-model-paid-to-destroy-bill-cosby-comes-forward/
Wilhelmina Model offered $15,000 to Destroy Bill Cosby Comes Forward! |
Did you read that article?
But yeah....seems anything that anyone wants to say on the topic is fair game for the media.
The sheer lack of integrity shown in the media on this subject is disheartening. |
6 megamedia companies control almost 90 percent of everythng in America you see on tv, listen on the radio, read in a newspaper or magazne, provides your access to cable tv, etc. its not a surprise. For real news about America you need to go outside of America for any real insight. That or independent online sources. |
What brand of tin foll do you recommend for protective headgear? |
http://www.businessinsider.com/these-6-corporations-control-90-of-the-media-in-america-2012-6
These 6 Corporations Control 90% Of The Media In America
Facts wrapped in tin foil for you buddy. Enjoy. |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
http://nation19.com/wilhelmina-model-paid-to-destroy-bill-cosby-comes-forward/
Wilhelmina Model offered $15,000 to Destroy Bill Cosby Comes Forward! |
Did you read that article?
But yeah....seems anything that anyone wants to say on the topic is fair game for the media.
The sheer lack of integrity shown in the media on this subject is disheartening. |
6 megamedia companies control almost 90 percent of everythng in America you see on tv, listen on the radio, read in a newspaper or magazne, provides your access to cable tv, etc. its not a surprise. For real news about America you need to go outside of America for any real insight. That or independent online sources. |
What brand of tin foll do you recommend for protective headgear? |
http://www.businessinsider.com/these-6-corporations-control-90-of-the-media-in-america-2012-6
These 6 Corporations Control 90% Of The Media In America
Facts wrapped in tin foil for you buddy. Enjoy. |
sb has become the proverbial Boy Who Cried Wolf. The moral of the story is "Nobody believes a liar, even when he tells the truth." |
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