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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| The problem is money. The beginning pay for a teacher in the U.S. is $36,000 plus full benefits. Hagwons can't match that. |
Hagwons already match that. 2.1-2.2 million with a paid apartment, pension, and severance amounts to significantly better pay package than $36,000 in the States. Add in the fact that unless you're in one of just a few cities in the States you really need to have a car, a significant added expense, and you come out way ahead in Korea, at least in terms of money (though not necessarily in terms of career progression). I make significantly more than that $36,000 now in the States, and not in an expensive area, but I had a lot more freedom to spend whatever I pleased and still come out ahead there than I do here. |
You include the benefits for teaching in a hagwon, including that wonderful studio apartment or worse such teachers live in, and leaving out the benefits package for a teacher in the U.S., which is going to include, among other things, significantly better medical coverage. Don't forget the yearly raises American teachers get, which though not much are more that hagwoners get. And then there's the matter of vacation and sick days.
In certain school districts, help with housing expenses is provided.There are incentives for teaching in rural areas and more.
Yes, owning a car is a large expense, but it can also make a great difference in quality of life.
Overall, except for those willing to live in a manner more befitting a grad student than a person with full-time employment, you do not come out "way ahead" in Korea. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| The problem is money. The beginning pay for a teacher in the U.S. is $36,000 plus full benefits. Hagwons can't match that. |
Hagwons already match that. 2.1-2.2 million with a paid apartment, pension, and severance amounts to significantly better pay package than $36,000 in the States. Add in the fact that unless you're in one of just a few cities in the States you really need to have a car, a significant added expense, and you come out way ahead in Korea, at least in terms of money (though not necessarily in terms of career progression). I make significantly more than that $36,000 now in the States, and not in an expensive area, but I had a lot more freedom to spend whatever I pleased and still come out ahead there than I do here. |
You include the benefits for teaching in a hagwon, including that wonderful studio apartment or worse such teachers live in, and leaving out the benefits package for a teacher in the U.S., which is going to include, among other things, significantly better medical coverage. Don't forget the yearly raises American teachers get, which though not much are more that hagwoners get. And then there's the matter of vacation and sick days.
In certain school districts, help with housing expenses is provided.There are incentives for teaching in rural areas and more.
Yes, owning a car is a large expense, but it can also make a great difference in quality of life.
Overall, except for those willing to live in a manner more befitting a grad student than a person with full-time employment, you do not come out "way ahead" in Korea. |
But if we're talking about recent grads, which we presumably are if we're comparing EFLers to teachers making $35,000/year, medical coverage really isn't a big deal. There's definitely a cost-benefit involved, but savings potential is a lot higher in Korea.
Take home on $40,000/year is going to be roughly $2,500/month in the States, depending on state and local taxes. I'm in the Atlanta area, one of the cheapest metros in the country, and the lowest price you're going to find a one bedroom or studio apartment for is $550/month, and that's going to be a really crappy apartment in a pretty bad area, far from the city itself. If you're okay with a roommate (arguably a worse situation than what you get in Korea), then you're looking at around $400/month/person minimum. Figure at least $90/month for car insurance, with at least $200 or so for a car payment, though these can vary greatly based on what you're driving. Gas expenditures will also vary significantly depending on how far you live from work, but figure around $100/month at a minimum. All told, we're about $800 deep on expenses that you don't have to pay as a teacher in Korea, and that's assuming pretty much the cheapest projections possible. I have a number of friends who are certified teachers who went to Korea straight after school for this very reason, as they were much more able to address their loans while living reasonably well than they would have been back home.
As for school sponsored apartments and having a car, this is a matter of personal preference, but considering how many people I know who spend 2 hours each day driving to and from work, and how common this is in America's cities and suburbs, I don't really see cars as improving quality of life. I do remember how I missed the freedom of being able to drive when I lived in Korea, but there's also a definite freedom to being able to take public transportation and cheaply and easily circumvent gridlock. Pick your poison. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| The problem is money. The beginning pay for a teacher in the U.S. is $36,000 plus full benefits. Hagwons can't match that. |
Hagwons already match that. 2.1-2.2 million with a paid apartment, pension, and severance amounts to significantly better pay package than $36,000 in the States. Add in the fact that unless you're in one of just a few cities in the States you really need to have a car, a significant added expense, and you come out way ahead in Korea, at least in terms of money (though not necessarily in terms of career progression). I make significantly more than that $36,000 now in the States, and not in an expensive area, but I had a lot more freedom to spend whatever I pleased and still come out ahead there than I do here. |
You include the benefits for teaching in a hagwon, including that wonderful studio apartment or worse such teachers live in, and leaving out the benefits package for a teacher in the U.S., which is going to include, among other things, significantly better medical coverage. Don't forget the yearly raises American teachers get, which though not much are more that hagwoners get. And then there's the matter of vacation and sick days.
In certain school districts, help with housing expenses is provided.There are incentives for teaching in rural areas and more.
Yes, owning a car is a large expense, but it can also make a great difference in quality of life.
Overall, except for those willing to live in a manner more befitting a grad student than a person with full-time employment, you do not come out "way ahead" in Korea. |
But if we're talking about recent grads, which we presumably are if we're comparing EFLers to teachers making $35,000/year, medical coverage really isn't a big deal. There's definitely a cost-benefit involved, but savings potential is a lot higher in Korea.
Take home on $40,000/year is going to be roughly $2,500/month in the States, depending on state and local taxes. I'm in the Atlanta area, one of the cheapest metros in the country, and the lowest price you're going to find a one bedroom or studio apartment for is $550/month, and that's going to be a really crappy apartment in a pretty bad area, far from the city itself. If you're okay with a roommate (arguably a worse situation than what you get in Korea), then you're looking at around $400/month/person minimum. Figure at least $90/month for car insurance, with at least $200 or so for a car payment, though these can vary greatly based on what you're driving. Gas expenditures will also vary significantly depending on how far you live from work, but figure around $100/month at a minimum. All told, we're about $800 deep on expenses that you don't have to pay as a teacher in Korea, and that's assuming pretty much the cheapest projections possible. I have a number of friends who are certified teachers who went to Korea straight after school for this very reason, as they were much more able to address their loans while living reasonably well than they would have been back home.
As for school sponsored apartments and having a car, this is a matter of personal preference, but considering how many people I know who spend 2 hours each day driving to and from work, and how common this is in America's cities and suburbs, I don't really see cars as improving quality of life. I do remember how I missed the freedom of being able to drive when I lived in Korea, but there's also a definite freedom to being able to take public transportation and cheaply and easily circumvent gridlock. Pick your poison. |
Agreed on cars for the most part financially, but Atlanta is notorious for its traffic. And there are plenty of places cheaper to live in than Atlanta, but since the great recession rents have gone up everywhere because more people are renting. If you were just starting out, though you could go craig's list and share an apartment or home with someone and save
Driving to work is, for most, a step up from taking the subway or bus, neither of which is all that comfortable You are then left to contend with the weather on your walk to and from public transportation. Yes, you can always fight for a taxi or call one and wait.
There are many, many cities where you won't have a long commute to teach if you do your homework And there are many cities where there are bus lines that may work for someone who is dead set against owning a car or wants to save on the commute to work. And one may live in an area where biking to work is feasible.
But I agree that if your sole goal is to save money, it's easier, for the most part, in Korea. Especially if you're working at a hagwon and doing work on the side, in which case you don't have much time to spend your money.
In fact, I'd say that's one of the very few good reasons to be in Korea--for the money. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Just as I posted earlier, if you don't want to own a car in the U.S., it's possible to do without one. The Atlantic article also backs up my thoughts on sharing a living space to save money.
And as far as car use, that's being shared as well. So there are times when they feel a car is necessary or even just convenient.
Once they get married and have children, it won't be so easy to live without a car. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Just as I posted earlier, if you don't want to own a car in the U.S., it's possible to do without one. The Atlantic article also backs up my thoughts on sharing a living space to save money.
And as far as car use, that's being shared as well. So there are times when they feel a car is necessary or even just convenient.
Once they get married and have children, it won't be so easy to live without a car. |
Who says we have the money to get married and have children?  At 28 years old I have all of two friends who are engaged, few who are dating, and none who are married. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Just as I posted earlier, if you don't want to own a car in the U.S., it's possible to do without one. The Atlantic article also backs up my thoughts on sharing a living space to save money.
And as far as car use, that's being shared as well. So there are times when they feel a car is necessary or even just convenient.
Once they get married and have children, it won't be so easy to live without a car. |
Who says we have the money to get married and have children? At 28 years old I have all of two friends who are engaged, few who are dating, and none who are married. |
Could be you hang out with losers.
Just sayin'.  |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Could be you hang out with losers.
Just sayin'. |
Could be, but the stats back up that there are a hell of a lot of losers if that's the case. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Median age of first marriage in the U.S.: 28; in Korea, 31. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Could be you hang out with losers.
Just sayin'. |
Could be, but the stats back up that there are a hell of a lot of losers if that's the case. |
I'm not talking about marriage, I'm talking about having a relationship with the opposite sex, or same sex if that's your bag. Hanging out with a pretty young thing as opposed to a smartphone. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| Median age of first marriage in the U.S.: 28; in Korea, 31. |
And this represents yet another example of your using statistics like a finely honed bludgeon. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Could be you hang out with losers.
Just sayin'. |
Could be, but the stats back up that there are a hell of a lot of losers if that's the case. |
I'm not talking about marriage, I'm talking about having a relationship with the opposite sex, or same sex if that's your bag. Hanging out with a pretty young thing as opposed to a smartphone. |
Point taken. The sad truth of it is that "dating", such as it is, is much less of a constant in North America than it is in Korea, at least in 2014. Everyone just uses Tinder. |
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