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radish kimchi
Joined: 20 Mar 2014
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 Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:14 am Post subject: "Had I" grammar question |
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I was waiting for a class and I looked at a student's test. I asked a teacher at the school if it was corrected or not because I saw a mistake. After they realized I was looking over the answers, I got flooded with English questions.
One got me.
"Had I money" maybe it continued as "I would have"
I immediately rejected it as correct, then I thought "Had I known......"
With a verb it makes sense, but "Had I money"?
What would you say? |
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fustiancorduroy
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| That's inversion. We use it all the time in English, such as when we ask questions or say things like, "Boy, am I hungry." "Had I money" is the same as saying "If I had money." It is correct. |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:08 am Post subject: Re: "Had I" grammar question |
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| radish kimchi wrote: |
I was waiting for a class and I looked at a student's test. I asked a teacher at the school if it was corrected or not because I saw a mistake. After they realized I was looking over the answers, I got flooded with English questions.
One got me.
"Had I money" maybe it continued as "I would have"
I immediately rejected it as correct, then I thought "Had I known......"
With a verb it makes sense, but "Had I money"?
What would you say? |
It's correct. With the verb, it would be "Had I had money" which I think is redundant and often the rules allow for omission in those cases. However, I wonder if the article "the" is needed. "Had I the money" sounds more correct to me. I don't know. Had I the time, I would look it up and see if it's right. |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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If you are using a noun it's more common to use "the".
e.g. Had I the money, I would have bought it.
If it's a verb then the majority of the time you don't need "the".
e.g. Had I known, I would have phoned you.
There are exceptions but these basic rules should cover most bases. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: "Had I" grammar question |
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| Stain wrote: |
| It's correct. With the verb, it would be "Had I had money" which I think is redundant and often the rules allow for omission in those cases. However, I wonder if the article "the" is needed. "Had I the money" sounds more correct to me. I don't know. Had I the time, I would look it up and see if it's right. |
hmm...actually,
"Had I had money" is not the same conditional as "Had I money"
3rd conditional vs 2nd conditional (or possibly 1st)
And while I am at it...
Had you the time...really...really?
Of course you have time, you are just too damned otherwise engaged to look it up. (I kid. I kid.)
 No one has time...we make time.
But...wonder no more..."the" is optional.
| jazzmaster wrote: |
If you are using a noun it's more common to use "the".
e.g. Had I the money, I would have bought it.
If it's a verb then the majority of the time you don't need "the".
e.g. Had I known, I would have phoned you.
There are exceptions but these basic rules should cover most bases. |
Hey Jazzmaster,
Can you give an example of using an article with a verb?
You say 'the majority of the time you don't need "the"
Isn't it more like, "You can't use 'the'." ?
Maybe I am reading too much into that.
Cheers |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: "Had I" grammar question |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
But...wonder no more..."the" is optional. |
Doesn't the inclusion of the definite article imply something slightly different? When I hear, "Had I money," it implies to me an indefinite quantity of money, while when I hear, "Had I the money," it implies to me the exact sum required for some end. Maybe that distinction is just in my head. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: "Had I" grammar question |
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| Fox wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
But...wonder no more..."the" is optional. |
Doesn't the inclusion of the definite article imply something slightly different? When I hear, "Had I money," it implies to me an indefinite quantity of money, while when I hear, "Had I the money," it implies to me the exact sum required for some end. Maybe that distinction is just in my head. |
Actually, I would agree with that.
I feel that using the article implies 1st conditional.
And no article implies 2nd conditional.
But that is not a prescriptive rule...just how I feel about it.
That is what I meant when I said either 1st or 2nd was possible, but I didn't want to get into the mechanics of conditionals too much.
Others may feel differently about it or feel no difference at all.
Can get quite confusing at times but keeps things interesting. |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:50 am Post subject: Re: "Had I" grammar question |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
But...wonder no more..."the" is optional. |
Doesn't the inclusion of the definite article imply something slightly different? When I hear, "Had I money," it implies to me an indefinite quantity of money, while when I hear, "Had I the money," it implies to me the exact sum required for some end. Maybe that distinction is just in my head. |
Actually, I would agree with that.
I feel that using the article implies 1st conditional.
And no article implies 2nd conditional.
But that is not a prescriptive rule...just how I feel about it.
That is what I meant when I said either 1st or 2nd was possible, but I didn't want to get into the mechanics of conditionals too much.
Others may feel differently about it or feel no difference at all.
Can get quite confusing at times but keeps things interesting. |
You guys know more than I do about grammar, but doesn't the sentence already imply an exact sum required for some end? I mean the following phrase after the comma would probably entail purchasing something or some things that would require that exact sum. By the way, Cosmic, you were right about my earlier comment. How could I have missed that? |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Another question I have is, why is "had" correct in the first place? After all, it is a past verb, so if we're talking about the present, why is it correct? Of course if you use the present "have", like "Have I the money" or "If I have the money" it is expressing that you don't know how much money you have. So, that can't be used. I guess "had" is the only option, and it is clarified by the phrase that follows it, like " Had I the money, I would have bought the house." Or "Had I the money, I would buy the house." I guess I just answered my own question, but if anybody has any insight, I would be glad to hear it. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Stain wrote: |
| Another question I have is, why is "had" correct in the first place? After all, it is a past verb, so if we're talking about the present, why is it correct? Of course if you use the present "have", like "Have I the money" or "If I have the money" it is expressing that you don't know how much money you have. So, that can't be used. I guess "had" is the only option, and it is clarified by the phrase that follows it, like " Had I the money, I would have bought the house." Or "Had I the money, I would buy the house." I guess I just answered my own question, but if anybody has any insight, I would be glad to hear it. |
Hey Stain.
I think what you are questioning is the use of hypothetical meaning.
When we talk about conditionals (1st, 2nd, 3rd) 2nd and 3rd are hypothetical. ( There is also 0 conditional - expresses certainty)
If I have the money, I will buy you a new car. - 1st conditional - a possible outcome depending on how much money I have.
If I had the money, I would buy you a new car. -2nd conditional - hypothetical
I don't have the money...just saying I would buy you a new car so that you will think I am a generous guy and buy me a beer sometime.
Note: in 2nd conditional we use the past tense - even when referencing the present or future...crazy for sure.
If I had had the money, I would have bought you a new car. - 3rd conditional - past hypothetical
So why is 'had' right? - it creates a grammatical structure that gives rise to hypothetical meaning.
I've simplified it quite a bit, but that kinda covers some basics.
There is a lot of info on this on the internet...just google conditionals if you are so inclined...here is one...lol.( it will do the trick)
http://www.really-learn-english.com/english-conditionals.html
There is a book...bit old....called Meaning and the English Verb by Geoffrey Leech. He has a chapter on hypothetical meaning that is pretty good.
Hope that helps. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: "Had I" grammar question |
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| Stain wrote: |
You guys know more than I do about grammar, but doesn't the sentence already imply an exact sum required for some end? I mean the following phrase after the comma would probably entail purchasing something or some things that would require that exact sum. |
I don't think so, but again, I want to stress that I'm not speaking authoritatively here, and I'm certainly not holding myself up as a grammatical expert. Consider the two following sentences:
"Had I the money, I would buy that car." The car costs an exact sum, and it is about that sum which he is speaking, so he uses the definite article.
"Had I money, I would not accept your charity." The implication, at least to me, is that he has no money at all, and if he had any money, whatever the sum, he would reject the charity. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Had I money? No there was none for my convenient use.
Had I known? Yes in fact I had known all along about the situation. |
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