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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Sister Ray"]
| Steelrails wrote: |
This is exactly the kind of attitude I'm talking about. The only reason one would choose not to drive would be poverty. I must drive or people will think I'm a peasant. What a load of rubbish.
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No, its just been my experience that most people who say they aren't doing something that involves a large, expensive purchase, are often just covering for the fact that they don't have the (disposable) income to purchase such a thing. It's like someone saying "Pfft, why do people have one of those fancy 60 inch plasma TVs and blow so much money on it". Almost invariably, this is a person who doesn't have the loot to drop on such a thing (or the space cuz they live in a one room). However if they were given a $100,000 credit card to furnish a big 3 bedroom apartment, you'd see the 60 inch. Likewise, if you were given a company car, especially if it was a brand new Audi, you'd find cause to drive it.
Some people may buy that "Ohh I'm above it all, that's why I don't have one or use it" crap. I don't.
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| If you want to reduce congestion and improve amenity around popular places like IKEA, Jongno, Gangnam, no amount of road widening and extra parking will do it. An increased focus on transit will. |
But these things cost money. And again, people aren't only coming from Seoul, they are coming from a multitude of directions and communities. For many of those people, public transportation is NOT an efficient means of transport and the government spending hundreds of millions of dollars to build a rail line to a provincial small town in Gyeonggi or Kangwon is not practicable.
Public transport is great for getting around within a city. I usually use it. When I go to other cities, I prefer the KTX. However, if I have to go buy groceries or the weather is inhospitable, I will drive. I can only imagine what someone who has kids and doesn't live withing 5 minutes of a subway station would do. How exactly is a mother supposed to carry 4 bags of groceries, plus a watermelon, in her business clothes, while pushing a stroller and looking after another kid, all going uphill to her house/apartment which is a 10-15 minute walk from the nearest subway?
Lastly, I am not going to waste 45 minutes of my life to take some loopy public transportation route to satisfy someone's notions of aesthetics when I could take a 15 minute drive and get there directly. Time is the most important factor. Comfort is the second. If I save time by driving, I'll drive. If I don't, I'll use public transport. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Steelrails"]
| Sister Ray wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
This is exactly the kind of attitude I'm talking about. The only reason one would choose not to drive would be poverty. I must drive or people will think I'm a peasant. What a load of rubbish.
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No, its just been my experience that most people who say they aren't doing something that involves a large, expensive purchase, are often just covering for the fact that they don't have the (disposable) income to purchase such a thing. It's like someone saying "Pfft, why do people have one of those fancy 60 inch plasma TVs and blow so much money on it". Almost invariably, this is a person who doesn't have the loot to drop on such a thing (or the space cuz they live in a one room). However if they were given a $100,000 credit card to furnish a big 3 bedroom apartment, you'd see the 60 inch. Likewise, if you were given a company car, especially if it was a brand new Audi, you'd find cause to drive it.
Some people may buy that "Ohh I'm above it all, that's why I don't have one or use it" crap. I don't.
| Quote: |
| If you want to reduce congestion and improve amenity around popular places like IKEA, Jongno, Gangnam, no amount of road widening and extra parking will do it. An increased focus on transit will. |
But these things cost money. And again, people aren't only coming from Seoul, they are coming from a multitude of directions and communities. For many of those people, public transportation is NOT an efficient means of transport and the government spending hundreds of millions of dollars to build a rail line to a provincial small town in Gyeonggi or Kangwon is not practicable.
Public transport is great for getting around within a city. I usually use it. When I go to other cities, I prefer the KTX. However, if I have to go buy groceries or the weather is inhospitable, I will drive. I can only imagine what someone who has kids and doesn't live withing 5 minutes of a subway station would do. How exactly is a mother supposed to carry 4 bags of groceries, plus a watermelon, in her business clothes, while pushing a stroller and looking after another kid, all going uphill to her house/apartment which is a 10-15 minute walk from the nearest subway?
Lastly, I am not going to waste 45 minutes of my life to take some loopy public transportation route to satisfy someone's notions of aesthetics when I could take a 15 minute drive and get there directly. Time is the most important factor. Comfort is the second. If I save time by driving, I'll drive. If I don't, I'll use public transport. |
Good common sense post except for the hyperbole.
Many people choose to live below their means, so to say most people who choose not to follow the path of materialism do so due to financial limitations is IMO an overstatement. Some do, obviously, but most may be a stretch.
Another point re public transportation: It's crowded enough as it is. You can barely squeeze into a car at peak hours on the subway and the buses already are a traffic problem. How many more could you reasonably add?
Department stores used to have their own buses, but they were forced to discontinue that practice, IIRC, due to that being a competitive edge. But that could be a short-term answer for Ikea. |
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kingplaya4
Joined: 14 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| kingplaya4 wrote: |
Steelrails and northway, you two can take your arrogance and shove it up your ass. Steelrails don't you work for EPIK or something? Unless either of you are CEOs that do business with Korea, or politicians that have a hand in dealing with trade agreements, you guys have zero room for superiority. I read the American news daily, and I can tell you Korean news stories are hitting the wires weekly now.
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I don't work for EPIK.
I read the news daily too. No one's obsessing over Korea and its trade practices and products the way you are. You act like reading daily American news is some sort of special achievement. Newsflash- Web browsers have this thing called "Speed dial" and I can pull up 6 American news sites in an instant and read their stories, which I do. Thousands of expats here do something similar. I also have a print subscription to the International New York Times.
Newswire? Getting daily American news something special? Do you get daily cables or 3 week old newspapers coming in by zeppelin? What is this the 1940s? "Headline Korea! President Truman promised tough talk today on Korea concerning the importation of auto-mobiles and home moving picture boxes, while urging them to keep up the fight against Communism. And now here's Edward R. Murrow with a special report on the Korean ferry disaster that has been gripping the nation. But first a special message from Chesterfield cigarettes. Sound off for Chesterfield!"
The issue isn't if Korean news stories are hitting the wires, the issue is whether people back home deeply pay attention to them and care. They don't. They don't live in Korea. They just skim over it. The big issues back home are Race and Gay. Not Korean consumer products and trade practices.
| Quote: |
| Please. How long did it take for Hyundai to release a hybrid? |
That statement is about as relevant as "How long did it take for Chrysler to put in airbags?"
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| Whirlpool refrigerators from back in the day are just as good as anything LG makes. |
Not on your energy bill. Yes, they all keep things cold, but today's designs are much more energy efficient.
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| I didn't put any though into typing the word microscope. Korea is getting a lot more attention that it used to, and much of it seems to be negative. That was my point. |
Well if you are poor at making that kind of distinction when you write, maybe you're making mistakes in interpreting distinctions in other things. There's a big difference between "regular news stories about Korea" and "Korea's under the microscope".
And yeah, you sound like you're quite out of date with your product and market "analysis". |
Let's keep this simple for your pea brain. When "nutgate" is followed in the US for almost two weeks with a number of Americans saying they won't fly Korean air, that's bad for Korea.
When the slavery story hits, and a number of Americans say they won't buy Korean products anymore, that's bad for Korea.
Rightly or wrongly, Korean products, with the possible exception of flat screens and smart phones are still perceived to be of poorer quality than Japanese, American or German manufactures. I keep hearing that Hyundai has "caught up" but their resale value and number of mechanical failures per 100 cars shows that they may have surpassed Chrysler but still aren't on par with the best.
There are exceptions, but generally Korean products have competed on price until quite recently. In the case of Hyundai it's been a combination of price and warranty. The new strategy seems to be offer similar goods at a similar price to their competitors, but cram more features in.
I want Korea to succeed. Despite a lot of wasted time in the public schools, I believe they have a highly educated population which is capable of creating a lot of innovations in the future. Maybe some of you geniuses are working for a secret R&D unit for Hyundai and there are things in the pipeline I don't know about, but when they release a hybrid a decade after Toyota, and have yet to release an electric car, they aren't really in the "innovator" category yet.
SteelRails, save your breath or your fingers, I have no interest in what you have to say. Anyone else, feel free. |
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Savant
Joined: 25 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Any big development should have had a discussion about traffic management but I feel in Korea it would have just gone like this:
Gwangmyeong Officials (GO) meet to discuss the terms of IKEA's design plans and building contract.
IKEA: We've designed our development with parking space for 2000 cars but we expect to receive more than 2,000 vehicles after our initial opening. Do you think the local road network can handle it?
GO: Yes. Sign, please!
IKEA: It seems that other retailers are also going to move into adjoining areas thus increasing traffic volume even more. Will the local Government assist with improvements to the local road network?
GO: Yes. Sign, please!
IKEA: Have you you consulted local residents as to the impact of the construction works and possible future hassle?
GO: Yes. Sign, please! |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Hyundai sales in the U.S. have decreased recently, supposedly due to the more conservative styling of the current Sonata.
Kia (and Hyundai?) was caught inflating average MPG figues twice. I wonder if that's why the Korean government just charged Chevrolet, Audi and Toyota with doing the same thing. The US actions were in response to consumers. And no one is complaining about the gas mileage they get in their Prius there, yet the Korean government says the numbers are overstated.
Who knows why they suddenly decided to test them? Maybe the continued increase in foreign car sales in Korea has something to to with it.
Samsung and LG smartphones are losing market share to the Chinese phones. They sell a lot of home appliances, but how long will it take for the Chinese to crack that market?
So a weak won it is and a shadow protectionism while it tries to get in on the TPP. |
Hey, I'm not arguing any of these points, nor am I cheerleading for the Korean economy or arguing for the superiority of Korean goods. Nor am I arguing for Korean business ethics. I just think that it screams of emotional baggage to go on about how Korean goods are inferior goods that people only purchase because of price when that really isn't true anymore. Your point about the Chinese needing to catch up would seem to support this point. Korea is losing its competitive advantage across the board, but it's not because other countries are making cheaper goods, it's that they're making goods that can compete on quality. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Hyundai sales in the U.S. have decreased recently, supposedly due to the more conservative styling of the current Sonata.
Kia (and Hyundai?) was caught inflating average MPG figues twice. I wonder if that's why the Korean government just charged Chevrolet, Audi and Toyota with doing the same thing. The US actions were in response to consumers. And no one is complaining about the gas mileage they get in their Prius there, yet the Korean government says the numbers are overstated.
Who knows why they suddenly decided to test them? Maybe the continued increase in foreign car sales in Korea has something to to with it.
Samsung and LG smartphones are losing market share to the Chinese phones. They sell a lot of home appliances, but how long will it take for the Chinese to crack that market?
So a weak won it is and a shadow protectionism while it tries to get in on the TPP. |
Hey, I'm not arguing any of these points, nor am I cheerleading for the Korean economy or arguing for the superiority of Korean goods. Nor am I arguing for Korean business ethics. I just think that it screams of emotional baggage to go on about how Korean goods are inferior goods that people only purchase because of price when that really isn't true anymore. Your point about the Chinese needing to catch up would seem to support this point. Korea is losing its competitive advantage across the board, but it's not because other countries are making cheaper goods, it's that they're making goods that can compete on quality. |
Quality has improved to where it's good enough, but low prices are still a big part of how Korean goods are sold. That's why the exchange rate matters so much.
IMO, until a Korean company comes up with a new product that has the impact of say a Walkman, a product that creates its own category, or a product that is demonstrably the best in its category--"It's a Sony!" Korean products aren't going to get a lot of respect nor are they going to command much brand loyalty.
As for the Chinese, they're doing just what Samsung and LG learned to do by OEMing and then stealing other companies' technology. Washing machines, dryers, refrigerators, microwaves aren't all that complicated to begin with.
And for the record, I didn't post the Chinese "need" to catch up. They have caught up or are catching up.
But you're right that Korean goods are pretty good. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Hyundai sales in the U.S. have decreased recently, supposedly due to the more conservative styling of the current Sonata.
Kia (and Hyundai?) was caught inflating average MPG figues twice. I wonder if that's why the Korean government just charged Chevrolet, Audi and Toyota with doing the same thing. The US actions were in response to consumers. And no one is complaining about the gas mileage they get in their Prius there, yet the Korean government says the numbers are overstated.
Who knows why they suddenly decided to test them? Maybe the continued increase in foreign car sales in Korea has something to to with it.
Samsung and LG smartphones are losing market share to the Chinese phones. They sell a lot of home appliances, but how long will it take for the Chinese to crack that market?
So a weak won it is and a shadow protectionism while it tries to get in on the TPP. |
Hey, I'm not arguing any of these points, nor am I cheerleading for the Korean economy or arguing for the superiority of Korean goods. Nor am I arguing for Korean business ethics. I just think that it screams of emotional baggage to go on about how Korean goods are inferior goods that people only purchase because of price when that really isn't true anymore. Your point about the Chinese needing to catch up would seem to support this point. Korea is losing its competitive advantage across the board, but it's not because other countries are making cheaper goods, it's that they're making goods that can compete on quality. |
Quality has improved to where it's good enough, but low prices are still a big part of how Korean goods are sold. That's why the exchange rate matters so much.
IMO, until a Korean company comes up with a new product that has the impact of say a Walkman, a product that creates its own category, or a product that is demonstrably the best in its category--"It's a Sony!" Korean products aren't going to get a lot of respect nor are they going to command much brand loyalty.
As for the Chinese, they're doing just what Samsung and LG learned to do by OEMing and then stealing other companies' technology. Washing machines, dryers, refrigerators, microwaves aren't all that complicated to begin with.
And for the record, I didn't post the Chinese "need" to catch up. They have caught up or are catching up.
But you're right that Korean goods are pretty good. |
I think we're on the same page. Korea has a ways to go, no doubt, but they also generally don't produce crap (though I drive an Elantra and I've regretted not buying something better since about two weeks after I purchased it - thing looks like it has way more power than it actually does). |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Hyundai sales in the U.S. have decreased recently, supposedly due to the more conservative styling of the current Sonata.
Kia (and Hyundai?) was caught inflating average MPG figues twice. I wonder if that's why the Korean government just charged Chevrolet, Audi and Toyota with doing the same thing. The US actions were in response to consumers. And no one is complaining about the gas mileage they get in their Prius there, yet the Korean government says the numbers are overstated.
Who knows why they suddenly decided to test them? Maybe the continued increase in foreign car sales in Korea has something to to with it.
Samsung and LG smartphones are losing market share to the Chinese phones. They sell a lot of home appliances, but how long will it take for the Chinese to crack that market?
So a weak won it is and a shadow protectionism while it tries to get in on the TPP. |
Hey, I'm not arguing any of these points, nor am I cheerleading for the Korean economy or arguing for the superiority of Korean goods. Nor am I arguing for Korean business ethics. I just think that it screams of emotional baggage to go on about how Korean goods are inferior goods that people only purchase because of price when that really isn't true anymore. Your point about the Chinese needing to catch up would seem to support this point. Korea is losing its competitive advantage across the board, but it's not because other countries are making cheaper goods, it's that they're making goods that can compete on quality. |
Quality has improved to where it's good enough, but low prices are still a big part of how Korean goods are sold. That's why the exchange rate matters so much.
IMO, until a Korean company comes up with a new product that has the impact of say a Walkman, a product that creates its own category, or a product that is demonstrably the best in its category--"It's a Sony!" Korean products aren't going to get a lot of respect nor are they going to command much brand loyalty.
As for the Chinese, they're doing just what Samsung and LG learned to do by OEMing and then stealing other companies' technology. Washing machines, dryers, refrigerators, microwaves aren't all that complicated to begin with.
And for the record, I didn't post the Chinese "need" to catch up. They have caught up or are catching up.
But you're right that Korean goods are pretty good. |
I think we're on the same page. Korea has a ways to go, no doubt, but they also generally don't produce crap (though I drive an Elantra and I've regretted not buying something better since about two weeks after I purchased it - thing looks like it has way more power than it actually does). |
It's the transmission. It's low torque to improve the gas mileage to keep up with the Civic et al. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| kingplaya4 wrote: |
Let's keep this simple for your pea brain. When "nutgate" is followed in the US for almost two weeks with a number of Americans saying they won't fly Korean air, that's bad for Korea.
When the slavery story hits, and a number of Americans say they won't buy Korean products anymore, that's bad for Korea.
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So, where is this mass boycott wave? Does it have a hashtag behind it? Or are you talking about a few comments on some news site which will be forgotten in a minute. Heck, a bunch of Americans think Hyundai is a Japanese brand.
Everything else you say is fine, but acting like there is some groundswell of US public opinion regarding Korea and its trade practices and products is just insane.
Just because YOU care a lot about Korea, doesn't mean everyone back home does. Like I said, the big issues back home are RACE and GAY. After that probably comes RAPE, HOLLYWOOD, and OBAMA. What happens in SOUTH Korea is number 497 on the list of top 500 things Americans give a flying crap about. |
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uklathemock
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:35 am Post subject: |
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I think you have to blame the government for the congestion. From what I've read, city officials actually went to Ikea's HQ in Sweden to do a presentation and pretty much begged them to choose Gwangmyeong.
Just the Costco near me backs up traffic around 2-3 kilometers due to the line of cars waiting to enter the Costco parking lot.
Gwangmyeong has a Costco and Korea's only Ikea store. What the hell did city officials expect? They should have treated the area like a busy airport, with maybe an overpass for drivers not going to Ikea. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:37 am Post subject: |
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Didn't Gwangmyeong also lobby to have a KTX station there to way back? And why do they have one? Makes little sense to me in the overall scheme of things. It would've made more sense in the network to take Gwangmyeong out and have Suwon, or Yongin, as the next stop after Seoul on the Seoul-Busan KTX line.
Anyways, I guess if I were a Gwangmyeong city official, I would also lobby for all sorts of businesses to come to Gwangmyeong, since it has little else to offer. But they should have just kept their mouths shut on the complaints, and it would have died down sooner, and it will.
Also, note that Seoul doesn't want an IKEA store clogging up their already clogged up streets. But IKEA is pretty set on having a store in Seoul proper. IKEA will eventually come up with the right terms to satisfy Seoul officials. |
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Stan Rogers
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:56 am Post subject: |
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The KTX was built in Gwangmyeong because of politics, not because the rice farms that were there before it needed a massive train station.
As for a new Costco in that area, my friend in Incheon says there is a Costco going up in Songdo soon.
Sadly there is still no Costco in Jeju yet. |
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Harpeau
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:30 am Post subject: |
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Steelrails - I disagree. I don't need a car. I will not drive a car in Korea because *I* don't feel safe and calm behind the wheel of a car in this country. I do not look down on others that drive, but rather applaud their bravery. In addition, I'm also happy that I don't have a car for the sake of saving energy, but I still don't look down at others. What others do is their own choice and will defend their right to freedom of choice.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Don't own a car. Don't need one. Don't want one. Cars ruin cities. |
Yes you do. You need the car that delivered your stuff. Your non-car owning lifestyle is enabled by others that do have cars.
And 99 times out of 100, people who say stuff like that really mean "I'm too broke to afford a car, so to make myself feel 'above it all', I'll just say I don't want one and look down on drivers".
The people who complain about too many cars are like the people who complain about the crowds at Costco. Everyone else is on the road or at a Costco is there for a dumb reason, but their reason is perfectly valid.
I even have to (partially) agree with atwood! -
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| I agree though that driving is more practical, which is why I disagree with those who say the cost of living in Korea is low due to being able to live without a car. You save money without a car, indeed, but at the cost of a lower quality of life. |
Testify! |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Just because YOU care a lot about Korea, doesn't mean everyone back home does. Like I said, the big issues back home are RACE and GAY. After that probably comes RAPE, HOLLYWOOD, and OBAMA. What happens in SOUTH Korea is number 497 on the list of top 500 things Americans give a flying crap about. |
And this was my original point. Hyundai, Samsung, Hanguk - aren't those Japanese companies? And you're telling me LG isn't American?
Look, if people haven't boycotted Russian goods what with all the work camps and the invasion and the political repression, and people have continued buying Bangladeshi goods after 1,129 people died in a very much avoidable factory collapse there, I have a really hard time seeing anything coming of this. The only way Korean goods end up getting boycotted is if people get confused and think that Korea means the Norks. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Steelrails - I disagree. I don't need a car. I will not drive a car in Korea because *I* don't feel safe and calm behind the wheel of a car in this country. I do not look down on others that drive, but rather applaud their bravery. In addition, I'm also happy that I don't have a car for the sake of saving energy, but I still don't look down at others. What others do is their own choice and will defend their right to freedom of choice. |
Well, if you are one of the 1 out of 100, then fine.
But like I said, life experience has taught me that usually people who say those kinds of things say them because they lack the personal wealth to make it happen. Heck, even if they do have the means to buy a decent used or new car they might not, which is almost there, but then you drop a FREE car (company car- they can't sell it) on their laps and they'd start driving too. All it takes is that one day of pouring rain and kids you don't want to catch cold and have to take care of for the next 5 days and you are throwing them in that car and driving to piano lessons. Then that 1 day becomes the next day becomes a habit.
People who have wealth and talk about pollution and energy generally end up buying a Prius or a Tesla, not refusing the automobile altogether. They get solar cells on their rooftop, not give up the internet and TV. Those that don't have the wealth still use their computers and refrigerators but make excuses and for big things they can't afford, claim some lofty purpose. 95% of the time, its because someone doesn't want to spend the money on a car. But people will admit to that only like, 5% of the time. Meanwhile 95% of the time you'll hear some lofty reason about "I believe in public transportation" or "We need clean air maaaannnnn". Of course these same people bum rides from you and ask for help moving. But yes, there are legitimates and if you are one, I apologize.
Also, driving may be stressful here, but it ain't THAT bad. It's not some sort of GTA style free for all. I don't flip out every time I drive. On my runs to the grocery store, maybe 35~50% of the time? High definitely, but not unlivable. Highway driving is pretty chill aside from the traffic jams. Heck, driving on the 35 between Jinju and Changwon is paradise. Real nice highway.
The only thing I'd say is that if you suffered from bad road rage back home, driving here might well put you over the edge. Otherwise, just put on some chill music and drive nice and easy. Someone cuts you off? Just let em slide through and keep on groovin to the beat. It's the GPS and road design that will sometimes cause you to flip out as it loses which road you are on and give you faulty and unclear directions and put you in a crazy loop that takes an hour to get out of. |
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