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SHGator428
Joined: 05 Sep 2014
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 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| SHGator428 wrote: |
| Steelie, I don't recall who suggested it but why have you never considered going over onto the job discussion board and given advice to noobs? You know a shite ton about Korea and seem to have been in different situations that one new to the country might encounter. You could do a service. |
What does where I post have to do with the issue at hand? Why can't you debate the issue at hand?
"I think S. Korea might not be accepting large numbers of foreign refugees because they have to take care to devote resources to the potential North Korean refugee problem that can occur at any moment."
"Why aren't you posting in the Job Discussion forum???"
What kind of logical point is that?
Or is your point, if you don't like it here, why don't you leave?  |
It was just a suggestion for you, a guy that spends a lot of time on this ESL board. It appears that you have no desire in helping noobs to Korea/Asia. No biggie. |
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Coltronator
Joined: 04 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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I find this discussion interesting because the Left Wing parties in Korea actually do fit some of the worst descriptions about it here. Saenuri (The Right Party) actually mildly goes against the isolationism, protectionism, and racism.
I think people are getting the general attitude of Korea as a whole and then blaming it on the wrong political side because of what they are used to back home. If any party were to cut back immigration, institute racist policies, and just be plain be douches to people we usually associate that with the extremes of Republicans, CPoCs and to a lesser extent Tories.
However in Korea those ideologies are found in the extremes of the NPAD(former DUP) and in the whole of the UPP (now banned) These are the Centre/Left and Left parties.
So while I agree that these sentiments exist in a small but significant portion of Korean politics. The proponents are found not where most of you are looking for them. I suggest people stop hating on Saenuri for this. (There are many other things to hate on them for but not this) |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| jazzmaster wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| jazzmaster wrote: |
| All of the far right parties you mentioned are in countries who are in the EU. If you want to make believe about 27 million refugees pouring into South Korea then with the free movement of people in the EU these countries face the constant prospect of the whole of the EU moving into their country. |
I think steel may have used the wrong word. Absorb is probably the better term. In the event of unification most North Koreans will stay put. But there maybe a few million that will mostly head to Seoul. |
I think the majority of his posts are the wrong words. |
They'll be part of Unified Korea. They'll constitute refugees in the sense that they have to expend massive amounts of capital to deal with them socially as they will be disadvantaged and lacking employable skills.
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"IF they reunify..."
Care to put one of your scientific timelines on that?
More hogwash. |
How is S. Korea facing a sudden collapse of the Nork regime hogwash? That's a scenario that everyone from Xi Jinping to Park Geun Hye to John Kerry has to at least be briefed on and make sure plans are in place for. Heck, China is at present trying to prevent unauthorized North Koreans moving into China and S. Korea has social support services for Nork defectors. |
You're still not refuting any of my points. The current Korean political parties policies mirror the far right parties you referred to as "xenophobic".
Being part of the EU means that the countries could theoretically have the whole of Europe attempt to enter their country. With Greece in dire straits that could result in 10,000,000 people descending on the rest of Europe. Romania recently joined the EU which means 20,000,000 Romanians could theoretically descend on the rest of Europe.
But enough with the imaginary, let's look at facts. From 2013-2014, 28,000 Romanian and Bulgarian nations arrived in Britain. From 1998-2013, 26,854 North Koreans arrived in South Korea.
Your attempts to justify South Korea's policies, which you claimed earlier were "xenophobic", with imaginary scenarios and fear mongering show what a biased, delusional, bigot you really are. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| SHGator428 wrote: |
| Steelie, I don't recall who suggested it but why have you never considered going over onto the job discussion board and given advice to noobs? You know a shite ton about Korea and seem to have been in different situations that one new to the country might encounter. You could do a service. |
What does where I post have to do with the issue at hand? Why can't you debate the issue at hand?
"I think S. Korea might not be accepting large numbers of foreign refugees because they have to take care to devote resources to the potential North Korean refugee problem that can occur at any moment."
"Why aren't you posting in the Job Discussion forum???"
What kind of logical point is that?
Or is your point, if you don't like it here, why don't you leave? |
From the king of derails. Come on, casey jones. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| jazzmaster wrote: |
You're still not refuting any of my points. The current Korean political parties policies mirror the far right parties you referred to as "xenophobic".
Being part of the EU means that the countries could theoretically have the whole of Europe attempt to enter their country. With Greece in dire straits that could result in 10,000,000 people descending on the rest of Europe. Romania recently joined the EU which means 20,000,000 Romanians could theoretically descend on the rest of Europe.
But enough with the imaginary, let's look at facts. From 2013-2014, 28,000 Romanian and Bulgarian nations arrived in Britain. From 1998-2013, 26,854 North Koreans arrived in South Korea.
Your attempts to justify South Korea's policies, which you claimed earlier were "xenophobic", with imaginary scenarios and fear mongering show what a biased, delusional, bigot you really are. |
How's this jazzmaster- How many of those right-wing parties do you think would be in favor of a strong military alliance with the US and the continued presence of US military troops on their soil? As far as I can tell, a lot of them have expressed sympathies with Putin.
And as coltronator mentioned, the ruling party in S. Korea, Saenuri, is the champion of the US-ROK alliance and their continued cooperation. They are also the ones that receive strong Christian backing. It seems that they don't fit into this neat little category you are trying to lump them into.
For those far-right parties, immigration and Euroskepticism are the centerpiece of their platform. Anti-immigration is not the centerpiece of either of the two main Korean parties' platform. In fact, its behind health care, education, defense, welfare, jobs, trade policy, social security, the environment, child care, crime, and about 50 other issues.
That is what makes them different. That is the essential difference. People do not vote for or join those Korean parties because of their immigration stance. People DO join those far-right European parties precisely for that reason. That refutes your point directly. |
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SHGator428
Joined: 05 Sep 2014
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| If only you could channel that energy that you put into 'debating' people into helping out prospective teachers or ones that are having difficulty assimilating over on the job discussion board rails dude. This forum could regain it's former glory as somewhere to go for all things Korean job/culture related and not be what it is now. |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| jazzmaster wrote: |
You're still not refuting any of my points. The current Korean political parties policies mirror the far right parties you referred to as "xenophobic".
Being part of the EU means that the countries could theoretically have the whole of Europe attempt to enter their country. With Greece in dire straits that could result in 10,000,000 people descending on the rest of Europe. Romania recently joined the EU which means 20,000,000 Romanians could theoretically descend on the rest of Europe.
But enough with the imaginary, let's look at facts. From 2013-2014, 28,000 Romanian and Bulgarian nations arrived in Britain. From 1998-2013, 26,854 North Koreans arrived in South Korea.
Your attempts to justify South Korea's policies, which you claimed earlier were "xenophobic", with imaginary scenarios and fear mongering show what a biased, delusional, bigot you really are. |
How's this jazzmaster- How many of those right-wing parties do you think would be in favor of a strong military alliance with the US and the continued presence of US military troops on their soil? As far as I can tell, a lot of them have expressed sympathies with Putin.
And as coltronator mentioned, the ruling party in S. Korea, Saenuri, is the champion of the US-ROK alliance and their continued cooperation. They are also the ones that receive strong Christian backing. It seems that they don't fit into this neat little category you are trying to lump them into.
For those far-right parties, immigration and Euroskepticism are the centerpiece of their platform. Anti-immigration is not the centerpiece of either of the two main Korean parties' platform. In fact, its behind health care, education, defense, welfare, jobs, trade policy, social security, the environment, child care, crime, and about 50 other issues.
That is what makes them different. That is the essential difference. People do not vote for or join those Korean parties because of their immigration stance. People DO join those far-right European parties precisely for that reason. That refutes your point directly. |
Now you've moved away from the whole of North Korea coming to live in South Korea, and started talking about America. You really are a desperate cretin. I seem to recall Saenuri riding an anti-American wave to get them into office. What does that say about the most liberal and open party in South Korea. The party you say "receive strong Christian backing". Maybe these were the same Christians who prevented the introduction of the anti-discrimination act. Homophobic and xenophobic all at the same time. Who does that remind us of? The right wing parties you mentioned earlier.
Nothing you've said changes the fact that the very policies you referred to as "xenophobic" are the result of the majority of Korean voters agreeing with them. Immigration isn't a major topic in Korea because the immigration policy is already "xenophobic" (your words).
I've shown you the truth and now all you have is desperation, delusion, and straight out denial.
You already conceded the homophobic policies in Korea. It's time to face the facts about everything else. But I don't think you're able to do that, because doing so would show you're a deluded, biased, bigot (which we all already know). And as soon as that happens all of your posts are shown up for the deluded drivel they really are. |
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Coltronator
Joined: 04 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:03 am Post subject: |
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Jazz, did you not read my post. Korea - Saenuri initiated - banned the LEFT WING ethnical/national supremecist party (somewhat controversially because it was done slightly extra judicially/not by the correct process) None of the Europea countries have gone that far to get rid of them. U.S. never made the KKK illegal only their activities.
I agree with you on most of your points but you are arguing your point poorly by over reaching with your claims. |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| Coltronator wrote: |
Jazz, did you not read my post. Korea - Saenuri initiated - banned the LEFT WING ethnical/national supremecist party (somewhat controversially because it was done slightly extra judicially/not by the correct process) None of the Europea countries have gone that far to get rid of them. U.S. never made the KKK illegal only their activities.
I agree with you on most of your points but you are arguing your point poorly by over reaching with your claims. |
So your point is that Saenuri is a good party because they extra judicially banned a LEFT WING party. That sounds pretty RIGHT WING by European definitions, where freedom of speech is still respected.
It's scary that South Korea feels that a national supremacist party is such a threat, and would gain enough public support, that they need to break rules to get rid of them.
You're giving the example of Saenuri as a party more aligned with European standards, yet they are the party that used anti-American sentiment to get elected and recently shot down an anti-discrimination act. They are essentially a RIGHT WING conservative party.
Finally, you agree with most of my points because they are right. |
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GJoeM
Joined: 05 Oct 2012
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:47 am Post subject: |
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Jazz, don't get drawn in -- Coltronator is a troll. Check his online history. He's steelrails pt2.
Just ignore both of them. |
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Coltronator
Joined: 04 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:48 am Post subject: |
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Saenuri is the PRO America party the Centre/Left(only mildly, it was the extreme left that did majorly) is the party that campaigns on foreign fear. You are not wrong in your feelings. You have only misplaced your feelings.
Your point on the way the Left party(Far left actually not the Centre/Left or the Left party.) was removed is valid. It was a shame and your concerns are real.
However please pick your targets carefully. Saenuri is the party of inviting foeigners, increasing immigration and creating laws to protect their rights (however incrementally they are still the ones that do it - similar to not faulting Dems because Obamacare isn't a single payer system - the better reform was blocked by the opposition party) They are also the party of 90% subsidized childcare. They are also the party of mostly Free Trade not protectionism. (Again some because they have to pass things in the legislature)
Saenuri is also the party of crony capitalism and mega billion dollar projects that stall, but the money is already gone by the time it is canceled. Of capturing the Press and punishing Journalists. Of Union busting and privatization of public assets in sweetheart deals to friends.
The way you explain your position is poorly explained. But your heart is in the right place. It is kinda like you are writing a history paper on the greatest threat to the world in the early 20th century: Hitler, the man who brought communism to Germany and starved 10 million Ukrainians. A bad bad man. If I wrote that report I get an F because while my conclusion is correct Hitler = Bad my reasons why are all wrong and misplaced. |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| Coltronator wrote: |
Saenuri is the PRO America party the Centre/Left(only mildly, it was the extreme left that did majorly) is the party that campaigns on foreign fear. You are not wrong in your feelings. You have only misplaced your feelings.
Your point on the way the Left party(Far left actually not the Centre/Left or the Left party.) was removed is valid. It was a shame and your concerns are real.
However please pick your targets carefully. Saenuri is the party of inviting foeigners, increasing immigration and creating laws to protect their rights (however incrementally they are still the ones that do it - similar to not faulting Dems because Obamacare isn't a single payer system - the better reform was blocked by the opposition party) They are also the party of 90% subsidized childcare. They are also the party of mostly Free Trade not protectionism. (Again some because they have to pass things in the legislature)
Saenuri is also the party of crony capitalism and mega billion dollar projects that stall, but the money is already gone by the time it is canceled. Of capturing the Press and punishing Journalists. Of Union busting and privatization of public assets in sweetheart deals to friends.
The way you explain your position is poorly explained. But your heart is in the right place. It is kinda like you are writing a history paper on the greatest threat to the world in the early 20th century: Hitler, the man who brought communism to Germany and starved 10 million Ukrainians. A bad bad man. If I wrote that report I get an F because while my conclusion is correct Hitler = Bad my reasons why are all wrong and misplaced. |
I haven't "misplaced feelings", because I haven't expressed feelings. I've highlighted that the party you are holding up as comparable to the European mainstream parties is a right wing conservative party. Europe, in general, is fairly left leaning.
Your last paragraph, instead of using facts, states your opinion and is condescending. It's also rife with English mistakes that suggest you are a gyopo. Your posts also read like someone who knows very little about European politics.
It seems you are as ignorant as Steelrails. Relatives, perhaps? |
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Coltronator
Joined: 04 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:10 am Post subject: |
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Korean politics and especially Foreign Policy is often topsy turvy compared to the classical(Well modern actually) Left/Right divide. The Korean Right would be allied with the left of most Western Countries on various things.
Child welfare subsidies
Foreigner Treatment
Cultural Exchange
Ease of travel
Discrimination laws
This doesn't make them similar to Western Mainstream groups but it does mean that they aren't the party of extreme Nationalism. They are the most inclusive group in Korea. Even if that gives them a C grade in our eyes it is still better than the D or F any other party would get on this singular (plus the small list above) issue.
Do you vote here? I do, I keep track of Korea politics about as well as I can and know which party aligns wit my best interests. The question is do you? |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| Coltronator wrote: |
Korean politics and especially Foreign Policy is often topsy turvy compared to the classical(Well modern actually) Left/Right divide. The Korean Right would be allied with the left of most Western Countries on various things.
Child welfare subsidies
Foreigner Treatment
Cultural Exchange
Ease of travel
Discrimination laws
This doesn't make them similar to Western Mainstream groups but it does mean that they aren't the party of extreme Nationalism. They are the most inclusive group in Korea. Even if that gives them a C grade in our eyes it is still better than the D or F any other party would get on this singular (plus the small list above) issue.
Do you vote here? I do, I keep track of Korea politics about as well as I can and know which party aligns wit my best interests. The question is do you? |
I'm glad to see you've gone away and learned what right and left wing are in Europe.
But anyway, you're missing the point. The point was highlighting Steelrail's hypocrisy. He criticizes the European right wing parties yet attempts to justify the same policies already existing in Korea. This shows he is a deluded, bigoted, hypocrite.
You mention foreigner treatment and discrimination laws, both of which relate to the anti-discrimination bill which was shot down. Even with a Saenuri majority, they were still unable to get the bill passed. Hardly a ringing endorsement on their dedication to improving foreigner treatment and exterminating discrimination.
The rest of your post deals with your feelings and opinions, which is a common thread in your posts (along with giving things grades) and is of no interest to me.
I feel I've given you and your brethren Steelrails enough of my time, and I've explained myself perfectly well, so I won't bother replying to anymore of your drivel. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| jazzmaster wrote: |
| Now you've moved away from the whole of North Korea coming to live in South Korea |
We're talking about the influx of 27 million refugees through reunification and them becoming S. Korean citizens overnight ala East Germany. Not them packing up and driving through the DMZ like the Beverly Hillbillies.
| Quote: |
| I seem to recall Saenuri riding an anti-American wave to get them into office. |
You recalled wrong. Saenuri has always backed the ROK-US alliance.
| Quote: |
| Nothing you've said changes the fact that the very policies you referred to as "xenophobic" are the result of the majority of Korean voters agreeing with them. Immigration isn't a major topic in Korea because the immigration policy is already "xenophobic" |
Xenophobia is not solely in their policies. It is also found in the motivations of the people running and voting for those parties. Anti-immigration is those far-right parties raison d'etre. It is not the raison d'etre of any Korean party. That is significant.
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| It's time to face the facts about everything else. |
You haven't faced any facts. You don't even grasp Saenuri's stance and you've mistaken the forest for the trees. Yes, Saenuri might share a few similarities with far-right parties. It also has MASSIVE differences. They are the party that has signed free trade agreements, supports the continued presence of foreign troops on its soil and has relatively more liberal policies in regards to immigration and English. The far right also does some things that Saenuri here does not want to do. The far right wants to ban veils and minarets, and is opposed to international coalition efforts for peace and security. They also tend not to support the social programs and environmental regulation that Saenuri would do. Those differences are what makes it distinctly different. You tried to shoehorn Korean politics into a traditional western left-right dichotomy, but that simply doesn't work here. A car and bicycle both have wheels and make you go somewhere, that doesn't mean they are the same thing. Same with Korean political parties and far-right Euro parties.
Also, there are people who vote on this forum. I know Captain Corea has mentioned voting before, for Hanara, Saenuri's predecessor, is he a xenophobe? I believe TJ votes as well, possibly for Minju as I seem to recall him and CC going at it over politics, though I could be mistaken. Are they voting for xenophobia and rabid far-right nationalism? Or are they voting for schools, taxes, and health care? |
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