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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
Most teenagers around the world do not suddenly become rabid racists in the same blatant way many Koreans do.
This is why I will not teach middle school. because they've been poisoned.
Elementary school is great because the kids are free of all that garbage. Xenephobia, discrimination and hatred is not natural to children, it is taught by parents and the media. |
First, most Korean middle schoolers aren't rabid racists. They may have ignorant notions, but they are not rabid racists. Second, most teenagers around the world will take the piss out of anyone and everyone. This is the demographic that starts to watch South Park and Family Guy, get into violent video games, look at porn for the first time, and listen to gangsta rap. This is just par for the course in being a teacher and dealing with teenagers. Some teachers manage to have whatever it takes to get kids respect and establish a rapport and this can change from year to year. They can fail one year and work the next and work one year and fail the next. This happens all over the world.
It's called puberty. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| happyinhenan wrote: |
See, I was taught differently, that prose did not have to follow exact literal definitions. That is why there is such thing as someone who is 'literal minded' someone who reads into things without having the capacity to think more laterally and has a rigid mindset - lacking in intelligence and creative and emotional thought - or - 'thinking about outside the box' as they say these days. So I don't know what university taught you that? You must have gone to Pheonix! Laughing
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Well, I was taught that when engaging in any kind of op-ed, journalism (outside of perhaps gonzo journalism), or academic analysis of say, two countries and their comparative countries that you had to employ accurate language. This isn't some novel or stream of consciousness mush. This is an article. Are Koreans given the same pass if they were to say "There is no racism in Korea?" What was your reaction when it was said "There are no gays in Iran"?You don't take things literally in literature. Things like first-person narratives may do such things IF they are more to give an impression that is not meant to stand up to rigorous scrutiny, but the writing style is far different. When engaging in debate and expressing your opinion as you did, yes you have to be accurate and use qualifiers.
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| No, because if you set yourself up as some kind of authority on the subject and you are going to tell me how it is in China then you know that hatred/acceptance of Uighurs does not. lend. itself. to. every. person. |
That's not how it started. It started with you making a claim about a lack of racism in China, to which I pointedly asked about the Uighurs. I mentioned the state run media and Japan (a point you have acknowledged) and its potential to be turned on others, which you seemed to not dispute. Then you suggested that I was claiming that there was less racism in Korea. In fact, you mentioned this in several posts, which I NEVER claimed. I only disputed your assertion as to the extremely limited extent of racism in China.
THIS IS WHY YOU WRITE PRECISELY. YOU read what I said and interpreted some meaning that was not there. I never claimed that Korea was less racist than China. I did use the phrase "may or may not be" because I don't have any raw data and have never lived in China, but I'm not going to claim things one way or another without them. You believed that that was what I meant to say because I must have somehow been figuratively been saying that.
Now, we all make mistakes and mistype and we all misinterpret. That's fine. If you meant to say "There isn't SYSTEMIC discrimination" or "racism isn't widespread", fine. Just say so. Don't blame me for believing what you wrote and taking it at face value instead of making an educated guess at some level of racism you might be claiming.
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| I agree with that, but you are still wittering on and yet, to give one example of racism enforced by the Chinese government. Or any kind of marginalisation based on race hate or race superiority. |
As I said, the subjugation of ethnic minorities is inherently racist. You can claim its not, and that's a point for debate. I think it is. If the Korean government deliberately relocated a bunch of people into Itaewon and the other ethnic clusters in Seoul in an attempt to Koreanze them, that would be perceived as racist. Now, that's only a neighborhood. They are doing it to an entire nation.
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Again, Franco enforcing Castillian on the Basque, Galcians and Catalans.
Was it wrong? Yes
Was it enforced cultural assimilation? Yes
Was it racism? No
I can show you more examples of this kind of thing and as wrong as it is, it has nothing to do with race and racism. |
Given that the Basques and Catalonians have expressed strong desires for independence and resentment towards the central government and that some Basques waged a terrorist campaign, I would suggest that quite possibly it is. I think if you were to ask them, they'd certainly express some kind of ethnic grievance.
Not every case where this happens will be regarded as racist or anti-ethnic. But some will. Just as not every conflict between Christians and Muslims is about religion, doesn't meant that none are. You have cited some examples where it might not be racist. Those who were being subjugated might or might not have made any claims about racism or ethnic eradication. Others might.
Saying what is happening with the Uighurs and Tibet is like saying Manifest Destiny wasn't racist. You may claim so, the Native Americans, Uighurs, and Tibetans I think will have a different view.
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| Except they don't, despite that, Japanese people live here in their thousands and are quite safe from being attacked. |
Oh really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_China_anti-Japanese_demonstrations
Korea, for all the knocks it gets on its people hating Japan, has not had anything like this.
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| Most countries have this problem. |
Sorry, but most countries do not have people knifing civilians in a subway in a massed attack to protest a country's treatment of its ethnic minorities.
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What you need to do though, is find out how many people are part of this group and what percentage of the total population they make.
And because someone sets off a bomb or murders someone, does not mean they are justified in doing so.
Timothy McVeigh set off a bomb and killed loads of people based on his views on how his ethnicity was treated, according to your fucked up literal minded view of the world - he was justified. Rolling Eyes |
There you go again, letting your figurative imagination and interpretation run wild. never said that. There is a difference between an ethnic group that is seeing its land annexed and its people subjugated and a lone criminal nut. The Uighur cause has been established and existed for decades. It appears to have a solid base of support amongst its population.
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I didn't know that, have you got anymore information or a link? I would love to read it, not surprising though.
Steewails - what have you got to say about all this buddy? |
I believe that that was the one that was shot down because of the anti-discrimination part against homosexuals.
Anyways, you seem to think I am saying there is no/less racism in Korea. I'm not and I never have. Stop figuratively imagining my opinions for me in your mind.
Last edited by Steelrails on Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Coltronator
Joined: 04 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah again while SR may be off on some of the facts or may have strange opinions. He tends to have more concise and clear writing. Happyinhenan, you prose.... we aren't writing poetry. We are having a debate. There is a place for Poetry in debate in the form of quotes or used in questions and for emphasis but that isn't what Steelrails has issue with.
There is no such thing as thinking outside the Box when it comes to explanations. There is technical writing and there is poor writing.
In addition, why do people feel the need to use strawmen to refute what Steelrails says. There is no need to create things he did not say just to then attack him by proxy. If you want to start comparing racism views of countries. Don't assume his views. Ask him straight up. "How do you feel the racism situations in China, Korea, and Japan, compare and differ? And which one has the bigger issue with it?" Now if he make the claim you think he will make you can now accurately challenge his assertions. |
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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Well, I was taught that when engaging in any kind of op-ed, journalism (outside of perhaps gonzo journalism), or academic analysis of say, two countries and their comparative countries that you had to employ accurate language. This isn't some novel or stream of consciousness mush. This is an article. Are Koreans given the same pass if they were to say "There is no racism in Korea?" What was your reaction when it was said "There are no gays in Iran"?You don't take things literally in literature. Things like first-person narratives may do such things IF they are more to give an impression that is not meant to stand up to rigorous scrutiny, but the writing style is far different. When engaging in debate and expressing your opinion as you did, yes you have to be accurate and use qualifiers. |
Steelwails, now you are talking utter utter shite - you know what I meant and so do everybody else - there is no widespread, state sponsored racism against Uighurs. None, nothing, you cannot find it and because you have lost particular little argument, your literal brain is now trying to find ways of gaining back a little bit of face.
Again - no-one. has. said. there. is. no. racism. in. China - there are racists everywhere - yes, I know - shock horror
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| That's not how it started. It started with you making a claim about a lack of racism in China, |
Compared to Korea - get it right. Funny how that literal brain of yours short circuits when it wants to. Get the context right, you spent the first paragraph waffling on about debating in a literal context and you cannot even get your facts right about our debate.
Get it right.
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| to which I pointedly asked about the Uighurs |
There isn't any widespread, state sponsored racism and I have never heard any racist or prejudiced statements about them from the many Chinese people I know.
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| I mentioned the state run media and Japan (a point you have acknowledged) and its potential to be turned on others, which you seemed to not dispute. |
Because, like I stated, there is racism and racists everywhere, racism is a human trait, found everywhere.
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| Then you suggested that I was claiming that there was less racism in Korea. In fact, you mentioned this in several posts, which I NEVER claimed. I only disputed your assertion as to the extremely limited extent of racism in China. |
That was my argument and then you came steaming in with your ill thought out nonsense, so what is your point then?
My point - and I will say it again because I have said it numerous times, is that I am comparing the Chinese lack of racism to Korea
That is the comparison.
I have not compared China to anywhere else, just Korea. Go back and read it Steelwails.
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| THIS IS WHY YOU WRITE PRECISELY. |
And that is why YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO COMPREHEND WRITTEN TEXT PROPERLY AND NOT CHERRYPICK BITS THAT SUIT YOUR ARGUMENT.
I notice you do this a lot steelwails, stop doing it, it is why you get hammered in most of your arguments.
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| YOU read what I said and interpreted some meaning that was not there. I never claimed that Korea was less racist than China. |
So what is your fucking point then? Because my argument is that China is less racist than Korea. That is it, go back and read it AGAIN or better still, get an adult to read it for you.
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| I did use the phrase "may or may not be" because I don't have any raw data and have never lived in China, but I'm not going to claim things one way or another without them. You believed that that was what I meant to say because I must have somehow been figuratively been saying that. |
So what are you debating about?
The debate was about Racism - Korea vs China
This was stated plenty of times.
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| Now, we all make mistakes and mistype and we all misinterpret. That's fine. If you meant to say "There isn't SYSTEMIC discrimination" or "racism isn't widespread", fine. Just say so. Don't blame me for believing what you wrote and taking it at face value instead of making an educated guess at some level of racism you might be claiming. |
You are a fucking idiot.
I have never known anyone discard and cherrypick a whole argument like you do. You are a ridiculous cartoon character of a poster.
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| As I said, the subjugation of ethnic minorities is inherently racist. |
No it's not. Did you look up cultural assimilation vs racism yet? I take it you haven't, and never will.
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| You can claim its not, and that's a point for debate. I think it is. |
Funny though, you have yet to bring anything to the table to prove your point. It is just you yapping on saying 'it is, it is, it is' the debating skills of a 12 year old who has been told they have been grounded for a month.
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| If the Korean government deliberately relocated a bunch of people into Itaewon and the other ethnic clusters in Seoul in an attempt to Koreanze them, that would be perceived as racist. |
No, not if the people they were doing it to were the same race. You don't know what racism and the concept of race means in relation to ethnicity, that is your problem.
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| Now, that's only a neighborhood. You are doing it to an entire nation. |
That has happened nearly in every developed country's history, the Chinese are trying to kill off the Cantonese language and guess what - they are all the same race, funny that.
The Scots Irish did it to the Irish Catholics - same race as each other.
The Andalusians flooded Catalan spepaking Barcelona - same race.
The war in the former Yugoslavia - all the same race.
It is a lot of things, racism isn't one of them.
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| Given that the Basques and Catalonians have expressed strong desires for independence and resentment towards the central government and that some Basques waged a terrorist campaign, I would suggest that quite possibly it is. I think if you were to ask them, they'd certainly express some kind of ethnic grievance. |
It isn't racism if they are all the same race.
And ethnic difference, based on a cultural identity of nationhood, yes. That is a lot different from 'racism' it is funny how you can fine tune your nonsense when you want to.
Again, now, you are talking in absolutes. The Basques did not wage a terrorist campaign, the group ETA did which made up a very small minority of Basques, the vast majority of Basques were against ETA or terrorism against the Spanish state
When engaging in debate and expressing your opinion as you did, yes you have to be accurate and use qualifiers.
Take your own advice when you write steelwails.
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| Not every case where this happens will be regarded as racist or anti-ethnic. |
Don't go changing it now Steelwails. racism and 'anti-ethnicism' are completely different as you very well know, you were using the term racism quite loosely before so either retract what you were saying or move on.
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| But some will. Just as not every conflict between Christians and Muslims is about religion, doesn't meant that none are. You have cited some examples where it might not be racist. Those who were being subjugated might or might not have made any claims about racism or ethnic eradication. Others might. |
None of my examples are based on racism - look up the word, look up its meaning. It is as simple as that.
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| Saying what is happening with the Uighurs and Tibet is like saying Manifest Destiny wasn't racist. |
Because the manifest destiny was based on race - that the white man, the white American was superior and was made to rule - over the Native Americans, Mexicans and slaves.
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| You may claim so, the Native Americans, Uighurs, and Tibetans I think will have a different view. |
I keep asking you for proof, but you never bring it.
There is a massive difference between Uighurs and Tibetans and the people who were conquered under the manifest destiny.
Any slaves in China? No, Any reservations in China? No, Any widespread uses of terror by the Chinese state on Uighurs and Tibetans? No, Any restrictions on movement on Uighurs or Tibetans within China? No - so - bring the comparisons steelwails because I don't see all that many.
Any Japanese people get hurt, hospitalised? I don't think any did. Again, how is it you have a university degree and cannot comprehend written text properly.
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| Korea, for all the knocks it gets on its people hating Japan, has not had anything like this. |
Which proves what? You need to state this more clearly? There is less anti-Japanese racism in Korea?
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| Sorry, but most countries do not have people knifing civilians in a subway in a massed attack to protest a country's treatment of its ethnic minorities. |
Again, you seem to think this is justification.
Timothy McVeigh blew up a load of people in Oklahoma in protest of how his people were treated? Was that justifiable in any way?
The IRA were blowing up people all the time in the UK
ETA were killing cops and blowing up supermarkets.
There are violent protests in your own damn country every year, or so it seems about how ethnic minorities are treated.
Look up the Cronulla riots, but guess what steelwails, every single one of those groups represent a small minority of people. And it doesn't mean that their actions or voice has any representative amongst the majority of their group they claim to represent.
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| There you go again, letting your figurative imagination and interpretation run wild. never said that. |
T
What are you saying then, nobody knows, you are just waffling on with making a point anywhere.
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| here is a difference between an ethnic group that is seeing its land annexed and its people subjugated and a lone criminal nut. |
It isn't a whole ethnic group - it is small minority, a tiny minority so get your facts straight. Let me remind you.
When engaging in debate and expressing your opinion as you did, yes you have to be accurate and use qualifiers.
DO IT.
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| The Uighur cause has been established and existed for decades. It appears to have a solid base of support amongst its population. |
Bring some figures, I think you'll find it is a very small minority of Uighurs and an even smaller minority that support violent attacks on civillians.
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I believe that that was the one that was shot down because of the anti-discrimination part against homosexuals.
Anyways, you seem to think I am saying there is no/less racism in Korea. I'm not and I never have. Stop figuratively imagining my opinions for me in your mind. |
This debate was about
Racism - Korea vs China.
Now if you are saying that Korea is more racist. Then the argument is over.
If your argument is - is there racism in China, I have said it from the first post. In fact, I have said it in several posts, there is racism in China, there is racism in every country.
Now I don't know what thick, literal minded, stupid, can't be arsed reading mindset doesn't get about anything I have said.
Racism - Korea vs China.
Not - Korea vs Sweden
Korea vs Cuba
Korea vs Canada
I am sure when it comes to racism - China isn't in the top half of the list - but it will always come above South Korea and their nutty neighbours to the North - probably the most racist state on the planet.
So, clarify your points a bit better, stop cherrypicking other peoples arguments and learn to fucking read and comprehend properly. Jesus Christ, how did you pass your online law degree at Pheonix, you have the reading comprehension of a nine year old. 
Last edited by happyinhenan on Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| but the crappy levels of xenophobia, nationalism and sensitivity about their beliefs and achivements that are apparent in Korea are not in China - and the aggressive stereotyping of foreigners by the Chinese media is also largely absent - apart from the Japanese of course. |
Uighurs anyone? China flooding Tibet and Xinjiang with Han Chinese ala the Manifest Destiny? I don't know if China is more or less racist, but come on.
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See how Steelrails cuts out the first sentence of my quote - because he is a complete and utter tosser. It is quite important when you are trying to debate people in places like this to quote them fully.
The full quote was - and you can all go back and see it:
I am not saying racism doesn't exist, because it does of course, like it does in our countries (I would like to know the stats for people being murdered for their colour in the UK/USA versus China) but the crappy levels of xenophobia, nationalism and sensitivity about their beliefs and achivements that are apparent in Korea are not in China - and the aggressive stereotyping of foreigners by the Chinese media is also largely absent - apart from the Japanese of course.
Steelwails - you are a complete and utter knob! |
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motiontodismiss
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Cave Dweller wrote: |
Well no shock. Many Koreans I know have told me directly that they dislike Chinese. They have made many comments about Chinese people's manners, hygiene, morals, among other things.
The subway thing could be a different case than what is written. The tourists could have been commuting during early early morning rush hour, when almost no one on the subway is talking.
I can't blame them in a way. I would rather listen to giraffes fucking than Chinese language. |
Sorry. Morals? Korean morals are worse than Chinese morals. At least the Chinese don't stab each other in the back. |
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EZE
Joined: 05 May 2012
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
Where in Korea do you live and where in China did you go, out of curiosity?
China is xenophobic, but Korea is substantially worse, IMO. |
I live in Gyeonggi-do. In China, I lived in Tianjin. |
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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| Coltronator wrote: |
| Yeah again while SR may be off on some of the facts or may have strange opinions. He tends to have more concise and clear writing blah blah blah.. |
Of course! He interchanges race and ethnicity thinking they are the same and he cuts and pastes part of my posts, taking them completely out of context to launch his shitty, nonsensical arguments. You would think he had something of a decent writing style - he has enough practice on here. |
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Coltronator
Joined: 04 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:35 am Post subject: |
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That is where I disagree. SR's use of your inexact phrasing or glossed over and assumed understood positions is exactly what any honest debater will do. Especially in writing without the availability of body language, or intonation.
I am of the opinion that SR's main beef with most people is that a great deal of people over generalize and use too much absolute language. Instead of saying a majority (or even super majority, large majority, vast majority, etc) of Koreans believe A, B, & C; many people instead say Koreans believe A, B, & C. SR often doesn't even disagree with the premise of the writer but points out that it is only a majority/plurality of the old, or of the opposition/ruling party. In these cases it then devolves to just bashing SR instead of bashing the assertions he makes. That is intellectually dishonest and does nothing to have a worthwhile conversation.
Unless one of your goals is to actually bash another person, why not try sticking to the arguments?
This would also apply to myself. As I seem to have gone crazy and bile spitting the last two weeks. |
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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| Coltronator wrote: |
That is where I disagree. SR's use of your inexact phrasing or glossed over and assumed understood positions is exactly what any honest debater will do. Especially in writing without the availability of body language, or intonation.
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Except he didn't - let's go back to his initial attempt at quoting me.
but the crappy levels of xenophobia, nationalism and sensitivity about their beliefs and achivements that are apparent in Korea are not in China - and the aggressive stereotyping of foreigners by the Chinese media is also largely absent - apart from the Japanese of course.
What he did was cut out the bolded part below. But he missed a very vital part of that paragraph which was:
I am not saying racism doesn't exist, because it does of course, like it does in our countries (I would like to know the stats for people being murdered for their colour in the UK/USA versus China) but the crappy levels of xenophobia, nationalism and sensitivity about their beliefs and achivements that are apparent in Korea are not in China - and the aggressive stereotyping of foreigners by the Chinese media is also largely absent - apart from the Japanese of course.
Then goes and accuses me of stating there is 'no racism' in China, never said that once at all. He copies and pastes paragraphs and takes it all out of context and then accuses me of saying things I didn't, it is not the first time he has done it either. Very sneaky and dishonest.
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| Unless one of your goals is to actually bash another person, why not try sticking to the arguments? |
I have - the argument is a comparison between racism in Korea and China.
I have copied and pasted a law and academic links which state there is no racial discrimination in law, especially against Uighurs and Tibetans. He on the other hand has just produced arguments coming out of his arse.
He also interchanges the meanings of race and ethnicity - this shows a lack of understanding between the two that he thinks he can use them interchangeably, he is not on his own in making that mistake but that has been a massive undoing of this particular argument. He needs to go and read up on the differences between race and ethnicity.
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| This would also apply to myself. As I seem to have gone crazy and bile spitting the last two weeks. |
Yes, I suppose there are better things we can all be doing on a pleasant Saturday afternoon before the Lunar New Year - agreed. |
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Coltronator
Joined: 04 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:18 am Post subject: |
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Fair enough, that is a pretty good argument to defend yourself. You didn't claim it didn't exist in China.
Now the issue is SR claims is that Uighurs are victims of institutionalized or worse nationalized racism. From what I have read is that prior to the 2000's that was certainly the case. There were policies in place that kept anyone of the non Han minorities out of the top levels of local governments. As well as an open policy of organized governmental Sinicization of the Korean, Mongol, Tibetan, Uighur, etc areas where there was a majority minority population with forced/incentivized relocations of Han peoples to these areas.
Back to Korea, the media point is probably true. However you did say with the caveat of Japan. Is racism against one nationality any better than against many? I would also try to limit it to media and those that go looking for problems like certain Internet Hate Groups. I also find that much of the vitriol that can be found in Korea isn't against all foreigners but against specific groups. (nationalities) |
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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| Coltronator wrote: |
| Fair enough, that is a pretty good argument to defend yourself. You didn't claim it didn't exist in China. |
Of course I didn't, it exists everywhere and in every country. Steelwails needs to stop misquoting me, using his inferior debating skills.
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| Now the issue is SR claims is that Uighurs are victims of institutionalized or worse nationalized racism. From what I have read is that prior to the 2000's that was certainly the case. |
It's not - again, what you are doing is interchanging ethnicity and race.
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| There were policies in place that kept anyone of the non Han minorities out of the top levels of local governments. |
That is a complete and utter lie, I am looking at all the leaders of Tibet and Xinjiang and they are ethnic Uyghurs and Tibetans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_leaders_of_Tibet
The first leader of the Xinjiang Automonous Region was an ethnic Uighur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saifuddin_Azizi
You don't seem to have researched this too well, matey.
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| As well as an open policy of organized governmental Sinicization of the Korean, Mongol, Tibetan, Uighur, etc areas where there was a majority minority population with forced/incentivized relocations of Han peoples to these areas. |
Yeah, that's true, but that isn't racism, we need to stop misusing the term to suit your own agenda.
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| Back to Korea, the media point is probably true. However you did say with the caveat of Japan. Is racism against one nationality any better than against many? |
Is it? I am going to say though racism against any group is unacceptable, you will find more racist vitrol against a more extensive selection of minorities amongst the population living in Korea than minorities living in China. The thing is - that lends to more racism being generated for the masses and by the masses so that means, between the two countries, Korea is more racist. One is more racist than the other and as I have said more than once, both will be down a worldwide table of rankings. However, my argument still stands which is Country A (South Korea) is more racist than Country B (China).
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| I would also try to limit it to media and those that go looking for problems like certain Internet Hate Groups. I also find that much of the vitriol that can be found in Korea isn't against all foreigners but against specific groups. (nationalities) |
Well, the media is the media and racism is racism. I don't know why you should limit it to printed, spoken media, a lot of these hate campaigns regarding minorities living in Korea have been generated via the internet. Koreans and their media are more 'net savvy than most countries, moreso than China. |
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Coltronator
Joined: 04 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:40 am Post subject: |
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I understand that Ethnicity is something different. However does that make it any better? Also the boundries between racism, ethnicism(sp?), nationalism are blurry. Furthermore Uighurs are a different Race than the majority of Chinese. Being a Turkic west Asian people as opposed to east Asian. (As much as race is a pointless term as it is cause we are all the same race or can be subdivided as anyone chooses to, but that is not on topic for this argument)
True the absolute top positions are technically held by people of the ethnicities. However each region has two Top guys the Secretary of the Regional Commuinist Party of China Committee (Almost always Han) and the Chairman of the Regional Government (Almost always of the minority). Guess which one holds more (most) of the power?
Also what about the bureaucracy? I have read that it is much the same as police institutions in America. The bureaucracy's ethnic makeup is made up of a much smaller percentage of Uighurs than would be expected based on population numbers.
There are also modern day actions that the government takes that seem designed to destroy their culture and ways of life.
At this moment I am not arguing about whether Korea or China is worse for minority discrimination (lets put this under 'minority' discrimination to catch all different hairs we could split race and/or ethnicity into). I just think you are downplaying the Uighur situation in China.
Government Employment
http://thediplomat.com/2014/08/a-tale-of-two-chinese-muslim-minorities/
Religious Targeting
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/9/18/uighurs-bow-downtochineseflagatxinjiangmosque.html
Cultural Elimination
http://www.cfr.org/china/uighurs-chinas-xinjiang-region/p16870 |
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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| Coltronator wrote: |
| I understand that Ethnicity is something different. However does that make it any better? |
No, and I have said that from near enough the first post. It is cultural assimilation of a majority which are the Han people of China who are flooding areas - to mainly - turn these places into majority Mandarin speaking areas but it call it by its right name.
It is not racism.
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| Also the boundries between racism, ethnicism(sp?), nationalism are blurry. |
Not really. Then we get into the reasoning of why ethnocentrism is the same as racism when it isn't.
In the former Yugoslavia - there was vicious ethnic pogroms but they were all the same race and the Serb and Croats spoke the same language (the only difference between was the writing systems).
Tutsi's and Hutu's - another ethnic pogrom - but again, they are the same race of people killing each other.
Northern Ireland - ethnic tensions between the Ulster Scots Protestants and Irish Catholics - but again - it isn't racism.
Racism, ethnicism and nationalism are really well defined, what can be argued is the construct of race itself - science says the concept of 'race' doesn't exist and political entities such as the EU has made that part of their manifesto - that is a different argument - and thus, if 'race' doesn't exist, nor does racism.
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| Furthermore Uighurs are a different Race than the majority of Chinese. |
I would say they are a different ethnicity. We could split Slavs and Celts into two distinct races but we don't - because they are white and European. I would argue - and most people would too - that the Thais, Chinese and Uighurs are the same race but different ethnicities.
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| Being a Turkic west Asian people as opposed to east Asian. (As much as race is a pointless term as it is cause we are all the same race or can be subdivided as anyone chooses to, but that is not on topic for this argument) |
But it is - who is to say who is right on this one? Many people think racial classification is redundant. Lot's of people think it isn't redundant. Steelrails - who started up this complete shitstorm has been arguing and race and racism. So, yeah, it does actually count.
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| True the absolute top positions are technically held by people of the ethnicities. |
Glad to see you took that back my man.
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| However each region has two Top guys the Secretary of the Regional Commuinist Party of China Committee (Almost always Han) and the Chairman of the Regional Government (Almost always of the minority). Guess which one holds more (most) of the power? |
It is the same in Northern Ireland, the secretary of state of the province is a Brit who isn't Irish and the First Minister is Northern Irish born - and that proves what? That there is racism in picking the positions in Northern Irish politics?
Not one single Governor of Hawaii has been a Native Hawaiian (as in ancestry native to the islands) what does that prove? There is ethnic/racial unrest? Not just China this crap happens.
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| Also what about the bureaucracy? I have read that it is much the same as police institutions in America. The bureaucracy's ethnic makeup is made up of a much smaller percentage of Uighurs than would be expected based on population numbers. |
Bring the proof if that is the case, it might be, but let's see the proof.
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| There are also modern day actions that the government takes that seem designed to destroy their culture and ways of life. |
Maybe, but it isn't racism. No more than what Franco did in Spain with the Catalans and Basque was. There are a load of terms for it, pick one and I will probably agree with you - I think the most accurate one would be 'cultural assimilation' because no-one has yet to prove that anyone is marginalised in China regarding race, though it would be easy to prove that the government is trying to enforce Mandarin Chinese everywhere - that's not a secret.
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| At this moment I am not arguing about whether Korea or China is worse for minority discrimination (lets put this under 'minority' discrimination to catch all different hairs we could split race and/or ethnicity into). |
Well, this is what the whole fucking debate with steelrails has been about - he still calls it racism when it isn't. That he because he has no idea what the difference between ethnicism and racism is.
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| I just think you are downplaying the Uighur situation in China. |
I have lived here for three years - going on for four.
How long were you in China for?
I have no truck in defending China. There is plenty wrong with China but racism against the Uighurs and Tibetans isn't one of the problems.
If there was, I would say so, why wouldn't I? |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| Coltronator wrote: |
Now the issue is SR claims is that Uighurs are victims of institutionalized or worse nationalized racism. From what I have read is that prior to the 2000's that was certainly the case. There were policies in place that kept anyone of the non Han minorities out of the top levels of local governments. As well as an open policy of organized governmental Sinicization of the Korean, Mongol, Tibetan, Uighur, etc areas where there was a majority minority population with forced/incentivized relocations of Han peoples to these areas.
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China's policies towards many of its ethnic minorities is far more tolerant and accepting than your posts suggest; as a matter of practicality the Chinese State can afford to offer minorities incentives because they only constitute about 8% of the population. As for forced relocations, these predominantly occur regardless of race, and the Chinese government has relocated many many Han for government projects, including infrastructure projects preceding the 2008 Olympics.
That said, yes, in China it is better to be Han.
Nonetheless, comparing Chinese imperialism with Korean race relations appears to be a matter of apples and oranges. The Chinese state has problems with two minorities: the Western Uigher and the Southwestern Tibetans. This results from the Communist Chinese government's reassertion of the imperialist Qing Dynasty's borders.
What happyinhenan is describing is the quality of life for foreigners and Han perceptions of outsiders versus Korean perceptions of outsiders. A lot of times Koreans will display polite or benign racism towards whites, assuming that whites cannot speak Korean and offering to help them while in Korea. Often this assumption is sound, but not always.
Koreans are simply more race-oriented than Chinese. This becomes obvious when you poll Koreans and Chinese on the blood versus environment questions. Koreans overwhelmingly ascribe importance to blood, whereas Chinese are more likely to point to environment.
It is also a matter of cultural confidence. Koreans feel terribly threatened of outsiders and highly prize racial purity. Han Chinese feel incredibly confident about their ability to assimilate others and highly prize the cultural hegemony of Han over other Asian races. |
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