|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
 Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:30 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: |
| Almost everyone who has lived in Korea for twenty plus years can't speak the language. (I'm speaking about nearly every Western lifer I meet.) You think they haven't had sufficient time to learn the language? You think they don't want to be able to speak it? Give me a break. |
Korean is too difficult to pick up, as opposed to other languages. E.g. I spent no time studying Italian but picked up enough to be fairly fluent in 5 years there. I spent a number of hours studying Korean, and spent longer in the country but didn't even get to elementary level there. Mind you I had a lot of background knowledge to help me with Italian (understanding of Latin and French).
Seoulnate already pointed out that kids learn better pron, which seemed to be the only thing your quotes claimed. When he talked about 'time' I think he meant time to study, not just time in the country, as with a language like Korean I really don't think time without study is useful. I reckon even time in the country plus motivation wouldn't get you very far with Korean unless you also studied it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| World Traveler wrote: |
The younger the learner, the better they are at mimicking new sounds and adopting pronunciation. The brain is more open to new sounds and patterns in pre-adolescence, so it is very difficult for older language learners to speak without an accent.
What’s more, younger learners are more skilled at identifying subtle differences in sounds. This explains why adult learners of English have trouble with minimal pairs like pin and pen, or fries and flies.
Being able to accurately speak and hear the language is of paramount importance.
You think Korean is easy to pronounce? To make out what one is saying? It's not.
Almost everyone who has lived in Korea for twenty plus years can't speak the language. (I'm speaking about nearly every Western lifer I meet.) You think they haven't had sufficient time to learn the language? You think they don't want to be able to speak it? Give me a break. |
Reading comprehension I guess needs to be stressed as well.
| Quote: |
| The ONLY thing that adults may miss out on by not learning language when they are young is certain aspects of pronunciation, which, by no means, are essential to fluent communication in any language. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
Seoulnate already pointed out that kids learn better pron, which seemed to be the only thing your quotes claimed. When he talked about 'time' I think he meant time to study, not just time in the country, as with a language like Korean I really don't think time without study is useful. I reckon even time in the country plus motivation wouldn't get you very far with Korean unless you also studied it. |
Correct. Time, as in the time spent actually using the language in meaningful ways (not simply studying), is the most important aspect of language development.
Korean and English are extremely different from one another. From most linguists' points of view they are the two most different languages in the modern era.
The average Korean learner will take around 2,500-3,000 hours to learn English (same number for English speaker learning Korean as well). This is a staggering number for most expats in Korea. It means, to be fluent or near fluent, that you would need to study roughly 3 hours a day, five times a week for the next 5-6 years (factoring in language loss, interference, fossilization etc.). How many people have time for that?
Age has nothing to do with it. Children actually retain far less language than adults do and take much MORE time to learn the language. The only pro side of the argument for them is that they have more time to dedicate to study. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| SeoulNate wrote: |
| Reading comprehension I guess needs to be stressed as well. |
For you. See the bolded part:
| World Traveler wrote: |
The younger the learner, the better they are at mimicking new sounds and adopting pronunciation. The brain is more open to new sounds and patterns in pre-adolescence, so it is very difficult for older language learners to speak without an accent.
What’s more, younger learners are more skilled at identifying subtle differences in sounds. This explains why adult learners of English have trouble with minimal pairs like pin and pen, or fries and flies.
Being able to accurately speak and hear the language is of paramount importance.
You think Korean is easy to pronounce? To make out what one is saying? It's not.
Almost everyone who has lived in Korea for twenty plus years can't speak the language. (I'm speaking about nearly every Western lifer I meet.) You think they haven't had sufficient time to learn the language? You think they don't want to be able to speak it? Give me a break. |
It's not just pronunciation. Accurately hearing sounds is essential for understanding/communication.
And it's not just the listening and pronunciation (which is hard as hell in Korean), too. Kids learn grammar way more easily than adults...and Korean has a ton of grammar. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
"The most incredible component of the language instinct is an infant’s innate ability to learn grammar."
http://askakorean.blogspot.kr/2010/01/koreans-english-acquisition-and-best.html
"Psychologist Karin Stromswold analyzed sentences containing auxiliaries (e.g. “can”, “should”, “must”, “have”, “do”) from the speech of thirteen pre-schoolers. In English language, there are 24 quadrillion logically possible combinations of auxiliaries. (For example, “He have might eat” or “He did be eating.”) Out of the 24 quadrillion choices, only around a hundred are grammatically correct. (For example, “He might have eaten.”) Stromswold analyzed 66,000 sentences from the pre-schoolers where the children could have made an error. The number of errors found in those 66,000 sentences? Zero.
What does this all mean? It means that second language acquisition is not like first language acquisition at all. First language is learned like breathing is learned. When you are no longer a child, your brain simply went past the stage where you could absorb language without extra effort." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Nice work bolding your own opinion, brownie points on that.
Stomswold is a renown supporter of UG; a theory that not only has been proven to be false multiple times, but also completed laughed out of most education contexts, especially those in the FLA community. In this particular context she is talking about critical theory hypothesis, not FLA/SLA, so get your facts straight. Not only that, but it isn't her work that says, "
| Quote: |
| What does this all mean? It means that second language acquisition is not like first language acquisition at all. First language is learned like breathing is learned. When you are no longer a child, your brain simply went past the stage where you could absorb language without extra effort |
", it is some blogger with zero knowledge of language acquisition.
Try to find any academically sound source that points to children being able to learn a second language (other than pronunciation) faster or better than adults. I will give you a tip, there are not any.
TLDR:
1. Source is not about FLA/SLA
2. Bloggers opinion quoted, not research
3. Try again |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Come on dude...
First language acquisition/Bilingual acquisition =/= second/foreign language acquisition.
The only concrete information in her study was phonetic recognition, which yes, kids are better at. Did you even watch the video? It had nothing to do w/ second/foreign language learning that we have been talking about in this thread.
To add even more to the bullshit meter, in the video they are using old Pavlov-ian conditioning to train the baby. This can be done with a dog as well. Does that mean they are better at learning language than adults?
Try to deny it all you want, you have the same second language learning capacity as any child in the world. It all boils down to time and motivation, if you don't have both, you will ultimately fail. However, don't make excuses like, 'I'm too old to learn a language." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SeoulNate wrote: |
| The only concrete information in her study was phonetic recognition, which yes, kids are better at. |
OK, so far we've established kids are better at pronunciation AND phonetic recognition. That is HUGE. Absolutely massive.
If you can't hear (recognize) what the other person is saying, how can you communicate?
If the other person can't hear (recognize) what you are saying, how can you communicate?
http://www.ted.com/talks/patricia_kuhl_the_linguistic_genius_of_babies
In my CELTA course I was told kids learn languages more quickly than adults.
Why was I told that if it isn't true? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| World Traveler wrote: |
In my CELTA course I was told kids learn languages more quickly than adults.
Why was I told that if it isn't true? |
Because the teacher was a idiot? Who knows why they would say something like that, maybe they believe it? I'm positive they didn't give you any evidence to back that up though since none exists.
| Quote: |
OK, so far we've established kids are better at pronunciation AND phonetic recognition. That is HUGE. Absolutely massive.
If you can't hear (recognize) what the other person is saying, how can you communicate? |
Again man, all I can say is come on...
You have never had a fluent conversation in English with someone who didn't learn it when they were young? I find that impossible to believe. Sure, their pronunciation might not be perfect, but whose is?
I have conversations daily with fluent Koreans who never studied when they were young or went overseas. Same goes for Chinese, Indians, Japanese and even some of my European friends as well.
In addition, I never started studying French until I was a teenager and I am fluent in that language. Can I create all of the phonetic sounds perfectly? No, but I am understood perfectly and can have a totally normal, fluent conversation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SeoulNate wrote: |
| You have never had a fluent conversation in English with someone who didn't learn it when they were young? I find that impossible to believe. |
Well, virtually EVERYONE in the world studies English from a young age. It is a compulsory subject in elementary schools across the world.
So the Koreans/Chinese/Japanese/Indians with whom you were conversing claiming no exposure to English when younger weren't being entirely honest.
(People lie/exaggerate/strategically omit in order to big up themselves to brag and pretend they are better than they really are. That's a common reality of life.)
French is related to English. Teenager is younger than adult. Some adults are as good as kids at learning languages. Most aren't.
(By the way, how is your Korean? Probably not too good.)
You think CELTA teachers are idiots who don't know what they are talking about? C'mon, man. That is foolish talk. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Who is better at phonetic recognition? Kids.
Who is better at pronunciation? Kids.
Who is better at effortlessly acquiring/correctly using grammar? Kids.
Who is better at memorizing academic vocabulary? Adults
Kids win, 3-1. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ghostrider
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Another World Traveler rant about Korean being impossible to learn. I've been taking a two hour Korean language class on Saturdays for the past year. I do about one hour of homework each week. So I figure I've spent about 150 hours studying Korean during that time. Progress has been slow, but I don't have unrealistic expectations. Maybe if I had spent ten times that amount of time learning, I would have reached a level that is truly impressive. If I really wanted to learn Korean well then I'd probably have to quit my job and immerse myself in the language full time for several months minimum. However, I'm not sure the return on such an investment would be worth it given that 95% of the benefit of knowing Korean will disappear upon leaving the country. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I dunno, man. I'd say if you don't speak Korean yourself (beyond a low elementary level) (and haven't spent loads of time studying it) you're not really qualified to assess its level of difficultly (or lack thereof). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Can every adult become fluent in Korean if they just practice enough?
How many hours would it take? (I think it varies person to person.)
I think those are fair questions to ask (though they are impossible to answer with certainty). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
