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Sister Ray
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Location: Fukuoka
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 Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| That'd go a long way towards making them hate white people less . |
It'd probably help if white policemen would stop shooting them, too.  |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Typical nonsense, unrelated garbage and lies |
Tactics are totally different to a ship. Are you really this dense? If you want to use Finnish ski troops then you would need to refer to ski warfare, which was used by many different countries throughout many generations. There's a difference between tactics and the tools used. Your ignorance, racism, bigotry and delusions are comical.
I've highlighted the lies and garbage that you constantly post here. Everyone can see it and you become more and more pathetic with each post.
Your desperation to show the success of the turtle ship just highlights how little Korea has actually contributed to the world. And your posts highlight your desperation to maintain your delusions about South Korea. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| Not only that but they were slaves IN AFRICA before going to the U.S. It's not like some white people grabbed them out of the jungle and made them slaves. Black people in America need to understand that. (Most don't.) That'd go a long way towards making them hate white people less . |
It also needs remembering that slavery came in many shapes and forms. If I had to decide, I'd rather have been an African slave in the American south (at least I'd be out in the fresh air) than a white coal miner in Yorkshire down some dark pit for twelve hours a day, breathing in filthy black soot and never seeing the sun, or laboring away in one of Dickens' aptly-named "Satanic mills." It's not as if all white people were at a dance party or a picnic while Africans were being enslaved. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| Actually, the U.S. didn't give the world slavery. It was around long before that. Had those slaves not been shipped to the U.S., they'd be slaves in Africa. Which is the better place to live (in 2015): the United States or Congo? So black people (or anyone else) shouldn't be too pissed about that. They actually lucked out. Now they live in the richest country in the world (rather than one of the absolute poorest ones). Per capita income in the U.S. $54,000 a year. In the Democratic Republic of Congo: $412 per year (which is less than 1%). Probably the only time an American mentions past inventions is when an obnoxious Canadian tries to claim the United States ruined the world. |
Just in case anyone was wondering who that American is on Dave's whom Steelrails was talking about. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| jazzmaster wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Typical nonsense, unrelated garbage and lies |
Tactics are totally different to a ship. Are you really this dense? If you want to use Finnish ski troops then you would need to refer to ski warfare, which was used by many different countries throughout many generations. There's a difference between tactics and the tools used. Your ignorance, racism, bigotry and delusions are comical.
I've highlighted the lies and garbage that you constantly post here. Everyone can see it and you become more and more pathetic with each post.
Your desperation to show the success of the turtle ship just highlights how little Korea has actually contributed to the world. And your posts highlight your desperation to maintain your delusions about South Korea. |
I see a lot of personal insults. I see almost nothing in the way of the merits of the turtleship. This isn't about Korea, its about military history. The tactics of using a turtleship are part and parcel with its design.
A better analogy might be the escort carriers of WWII. Exclusively built by the US in response to the specific conditions it faced in transporting materiel to England, the escort carrier proved to be an excellent design and concept. No one copied it. After WWII its time was over and had no further influence. But it did its role well and was not 'useless'.
Others might include, to varying degrees, the all-wood twin-engine Mosquito, the spring-launched PIAT anti-tank weapon, the Fiesler Storch, the LeMat revolver, the Ki-46 Dinah, and the F-14 Tomcat.
They didnt have much influence on the designs of other contemporary equipment and were superseded by later designs due to technology, but they did their job well.
The criteria for a successful military design is not whether it was revolutionary, though they may be, but whether it was effective. The turtleship was effective, same as those. It was not useless.
Pretty much every western naval historian who has examined the turtleship thought it an excellent design and had concepts that were years ahead of its time. Do you have any detailed analysis to contradict that? |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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Western naval historians recognize the turtle ship
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| The Turtle Ship is an early incarnation of the Ironclad for tactical purposes, and is best used to defend your coastlines. Thanks to its high Combat Strength, it can easily fight off enemy Caravels and even Frigates. Its main drawback is that, unlike the Caravel that it replaces, it can't roam around the oceans, which means that the Koreans have to wait until they get Frigates to start exploring other continents. |
Guess Steelrails was right about it being a coastal craft. (That's why it also sucks for your Civ, because you have to wait for the next sequential technology to explore the oceans) |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I see a lot of personal insults. I see almost nothing in the way of the merits of the turtleship. |
Which is exactly what I'm saying. You're supposed to be the one arguing the merits of the turtleship.
What you see as insults are the truth. You're the one who has been warned for racist language on this site. That makes you a racist and a bigot. We've been over this before so don't bother doing your usual lie and deny defense.
Now you've conceded that all your previous analogies have been useless and your gibbering on about escort carriers. Just more desperation.
"But, but.....guns......but, but........tactics.......but,but........ carriers....."
It's pathetic.
Do you honestly think Americans go around on message boards claiming escort carriers are a great American invention?
Instead they keep developing and inventing new things to replace the previous.
Yet, all you've got is a turtleship.
Or maybe you could boast that a bit part actress in the Avengers movie went to your university.
This is why so many people don't even reply to your nonsense nowadays. You don't even seem to know what you're arguing about. You just seem to like the clack of the keys and seeing your excrement on this board.
There's no point replying to your drivel any further as I try to avoid racist bigots online, as much as I do offline. |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
Western naval historians recognize the turtle ship
| Quote: |
| The Turtle Ship is an early incarnation of the Ironclad for tactical purposes, and is best used to defend your coastlines. Thanks to its high Combat Strength, it can easily fight off enemy Caravels and even Frigates. Its main drawback is that, unlike the Caravel that it replaces, it can't roam around the oceans, which means that the Koreans have to wait until they get Frigates to start exploring other continents. |
Guess Steelrails was right about it being a coastal craft. (That's why it also sucks for your Civ, because you have to wait for the next sequential technology to explore the oceans) |
Are you kidding?
You're seriously referring to wiki page as "Western naval historians".
Did the turtleship help the Koreans beat the Japanese? Yes.
But to use it as proof of the genius of Korean inventive minds is horseshit. If it had been as amazing an invention as some here want to believe it was then it would have had far more meaningful implications throughout the years. As it stands it was dropped pretty quickly and had little to no influence on future ships. Hardly the inventive homerun SR is so desperate to make it out to be.
As a final send off, it's worth remembering that when Korea was threatened by the French Navy, the government tried to build more updated turtleships. Rather humorously the Koreans couldn't get the damn things to float.
I think that's game, set, and match. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| jazzmaster wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| jazzmaster wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Bongotruck wrote: |
Hey now. They invented a ship that is not used, a beyond-useless water clock, and thunder sticks. Thanks to Koreans, we can........enjoy a sports game.
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Dismissing that ship because its not used anymore is like dismissing the Gatling gun because its been superseded by other more modern designs.
The soft-material bullet proof vest wasn't bad either. |
Nope.
Dismissing the ship is like dismissing a gun that was only ever used by one country, was discontinued fairly quickly, and had little or no effect on the fire-arms of other countries. |
Well, the reason for that is Korea's relative geographic isolation and the nature of the ship itself. This is why understanding something and researching it is more valuable than drive-by commentary based off of ignorance.
The Korean navy at the time was a coastal navy, defensive in nature. It's ships reflected that doctrine. They were designed to repel invasion in the coastal waters of Korea, not sail the ocean blue in their beautiful saucy ship. Their design's influence would have limited utility to the Chinese, Mongols, or Japanese who were their closest neighbors. However, none of those empires had much desire to see their navy be a coastal, defensive one. It's design would fail to influence them and that in turn would make it unlikely to influence other countries.
If you put the turtleship in the Mediterranean at the appropriate time, it most certainly would have influenced ship design in other countries. It's concept and design implementation was hundreds of years ahead of its time- a cannon armed, heavily armored ship, more suited for coastal or river action, shallow draft, capable of bursts of speed, and capable of ramming attacks. This theory would coalesce together 250 years later in the first steam powered ironclads.
Just because relative geographic isolation meant something failed to influence the entire world, doesn't make it a meaningless invention. |
Relative geographic isolation.
More excuses from losers. The turtleship was a dud. Stop deluding yourself.
And spare us the sudden claim to be an expert on the history of ships. We all know you're a blatant liar and a bigot. |
Just so we're clear, here's the conversation that has led jazzmaster to calling me a racist, a liar, and a bigot.
"The turtleship was a worthless invention"
"I don't think so, it did its job well and its influence is due to geographic reasons and its design"
"You're a racist!"
| Quote: |
"But, but.....guns......but, but........tactics.......but,but........ carriers....."
It's pathetic.
Do you honestly think Americans go around on message boards claiming escort carriers are a great American invention? |
Actually if you go to military history sites, aficionados will go around and around on this stuff for pages. They'll really get into the deep minutae of the subject. People will scream for ages over whether the Spitfire or P-51 was the better aircraft, and that's before the Corsair guys join in and then you get the YAK crowd and the Lavochkin fans and the FW-190 guys and then you'll get the obscure hipster guys bringing up the Bloch that could do 441 mph, or some Ki-84 fanboy, etc. etc.
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| Instead they keep developing and inventing new things to replace the previous. |
Yes, Americans aren't arguing on message boards. They're all in their garages inventing things.
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Yet, all you've got is a turtleship. Laughing Laughing
Or maybe you could boast that a bit part actress in the Avengers movie went to your university. Laughing Laughing |
Me, I've got nothing. I'm just making a historical judgment call. The turtleship was not useless. It had several concepts that wouldn't coalesce until hundreds of years later in naval warfare. One of the dominant theories of Civil War-era river and coastal combat was a heavily armored, cannon armed vessel that did not operate on the ocean sea, and whose primary form of attack was close in cannon fire and ramming attacks. That's the concept which the turtleship was constructed under.
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| You don't even seem to know what you're arguing about. |
Nice smokescreen with the racism and insults. That's all you have because clearly YOU don't know what you're arguing about as you have brought nothing to the table in terms of knowledge regarding the subject. All you've brought are personal insults. |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 12:18 am Post subject: |
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Just so we're clear, here's the conversation that has led jazzmaster to calling me a racist, a liar, and a bigot.
"The turtleship was a worthless invention"
"I don't think so, it did its job well and its influence is due to geographic reasons and its design"
"You're a racist!" |
More lies. This is priceless.
It's already a well known fact on this site that you've been warned about your racism. You were also the one who brought up slavery in this thread. Why? Desperation.
You've clearly realized that you've been bested, and now you want to get the thread deleted. More desperation.
You better go run to the mods and ask them to delete the thread. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| jazzmaster wrote: |
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
Western naval historians recognize the turtle ship
| Quote: |
| The Turtle Ship is an early incarnation of the Ironclad for tactical purposes, and is best used to defend your coastlines. Thanks to its high Combat Strength, it can easily fight off enemy Caravels and even Frigates. Its main drawback is that, unlike the Caravel that it replaces, it can't roam around the oceans, which means that the Koreans have to wait until they get Frigates to start exploring other continents. |
Guess Steelrails was right about it being a coastal craft. (That's why it also sucks for your Civ, because you have to wait for the next sequential technology to explore the oceans) |
Are you kidding?
You're seriously referring to wiki page as "Western naval historians".
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It wasn't a serious citation at all. I was lampooning the seriousness of your debate which has derailed the thread. |
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Koharski
Mod Team
Joined: 20 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 1:45 am Post subject: |
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This is the last time I am going to say this, "Address the post, not the poster." I am going to start banning those that cannot follow this simple requirement from the TOS.
Koharski |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Sister Ray wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
| That'd go a long way towards making them hate white people less . |
It'd probably help if white policemen would stop shooting them, too. |
The vast majority of blacks shot in America are shot by other blacks. There's your scandal. They need to address that if they want their young people to not get shot. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| Sister Ray wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
| That'd go a long way towards making them hate white people less . |
It'd probably help if white policemen would stop shooting them, too. |
The vast majority of blacks shot in America are shot by other blacks. There's your scandal. They need to address that if they want their young people to not get shot. |
^
What Smithington wrote.
What Smithington meant: Blacks are violent by nature. Therefore human rights violations against them deserve less attention. |
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Bongotruck
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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No, what he said is black on black violence is much more common than white on black violence.
Anything else is you putting words in his mouth.
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Smithington wrote: |
| Sister Ray wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
| That'd go a long way towards making them hate white people less . |
It'd probably help if white policemen would stop shooting them, too. |
The vast majority of blacks shot in America are shot by other blacks. There's your scandal. They need to address that if they want their young people to not get shot. |
^
What Smithington wrote.
What Smithington meant: Blacks are violent by nature. Therefore human rights violations against them deserve less attention. |
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