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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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 Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Smithington wrote: |
| We can generalize about phenomena in life by extrapolating (a big word, I know) from what we observe around us. It's what social scientists and social enginers do in order to determine everything from where to put a stop sign, how long a red light needs to be in location 'a', what social services will be needed sector 'x', and so on. Generalizations, based on extrapolation, can be very accurate indeed |
Notice the big, fat "S" on the end of "social scientistS" and "social engineerS"? You go around farting out stats like they're facts when they're based solely on your biased observation. No single social scientist or engineer makes the generalizations you do based solely on their personal observations. They have things like facts and data to back them up. You've got anecdotes about sitting around outside the local convenience store.. |
Typically (yet understandably) you chose not to quote what I said about laypersons and extrapolation. Other posters read it, and can see that you chose not to mention it. It's just another unethical apologist technic. It's called "selective quoting" and it has a long and dishonorable history on Daves.
Unfortunately, I doubt there's many people on Daves who would think my assertion of "millions" of spitters is unreasonable. Even if only 2% spit that's a million people. A million people spitting on the street! Do you believe that only 2% spit? Is it unreasonable to say that 2% of Koreans spit? Are you really of the belief that for every 1000 Koreans only twenty spit? Because that's what 2% of 1000 is. Twenty spitters! Am I being "biased" or "bigoted" because I think it's laughable to suggest that only 20 out of every 1000 Koreans spit?
Honestly, are you even in Korea? |
Fine, I will quote all your irrelevancies if it will stop your whining.
Honestly, do you not know the meaning of "anecdotal"? It doesn't matter how "reasonable" you think your numbers are, or how many people you think on Dave's would agree with you, you're still pulling them out of thin air.
| Smithington wrote: |
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Tell me again how you know "without a doubt" that more people die in Korea due to police neglect than American police brutality. |
Happily.
Let's take the last year for which statistics are available. Police shot dead 461 people in the US in 2013. That works out to roughly 1.25 persons a day. In the same year 5, 200 Koreans died in traffic accidents. That works out to roughly 14.25 persons a day. Now consider the extent to which traffic laws are not enforced here (seat belt laws ignored, infants not secured in safety seats, speeding, failing to indicate, erratic driving, running red lights, cars blocking others view of oncoming traffic, and a hundred other things). Are we to believe that none of these deaths are caused by Koreans ignoring traffic laws? Are you saying that Korea’s death rate is unaffected by the absence of effective police enforcement? We can see with our own eyes how dangerously Koreans drive. It at the very top of the OECD for traffic road deaths. If effective policing saved only one or two lives a day that would be a greater number than the 461 people shot by American cops.
People are dying in significant numbers because traffic laws are not being enforced by the police. It’s that simple.
Traffic laws are enforced in other countries for a good reason. |
Your conclusion does not match your hypothesis. I don't deny that people die from police neglect. What I want to know is how you know "without a doubt" as stated a few pages ago that more people die in Korea due to police neglect than due to American police brutality. How on earth do you know for a fact that one unknowable number is greater than another? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
I never said they should be treated as criminal. I said that in some parts of the west they potentially can get you a criminal record. Just to illustrate that such things are viewed more seriously than they are in korea. |
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| This is what I'm saying: the average Korean males behaviour will often cause situations and confrontations- trouble- that ultimately may result in a criminal record- in any western country. They're a liability. |
No, you said this-
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| Because all I see every day is Korean males exhibiting actions and behaviours that would earn them a criminal record within a few milliseconds if they were anywhere in the west. |
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| I already gave you several examples of these things being considered criminal offences or potentially so, in a variety of western countries. That they would in fact show up on your background check. Yes, some of them normally get no more than a ticket- but not always. |
Actually you gave several examples of people in the west being shocked that they are getting ticketed for spitting. You also had one guy in Arizona charged with Criminal Littering for public urination. There was no detail of the full circumstances of the case. Also, if you think those things are instantly cracked down on in the West, you are mistaken. There are alleys outside of every bar at 2:30AM that have a puddle of piss.
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| There are plenty of examples of this. This person was barred for public urination- something ajosshis do routinely in Korea. |
Go back and read the thread, none of what you claim is in there.
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| You don't even demonstrate any awareness of why these things are wrong. |
I'm not arguing the morality of these things, I'm addressing your claims regarding the chances of arrest and what constitutes something worthy of criminal record, namely the difference between civil infractions and misdemeanors.
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| The first was "amazed" when an American got "so unbelievably angry" when she bumped into him. |
Koreans need to not bump into people, westerners need to not flip their lid over it when it happens by accident.
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| This is what I'm saying: the average Korean males behaviour will often cause situations and confrontations- trouble- that ultimately may result in a criminal record- in any western country. They're a liability. |
Didn't think this one through, did you.
It seems your very own source suggests that the average western male's behavior will result in a criminal record, for apparently there are a bunch of applicants from the west that have criminal records!
Also, did you even read what was on their records? It was not spitting, jaywalking, running red lights, or littering. We're talking DWIs, assaults, trespass, and drugs. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| I'm pretty we DON'T want K-cops enforcing victimless crimes (such as consumption/possession of marijuana, teaching privates. gambling, etc.) but DO want enforcement of laws keeping others safe from harm (cars running red lights mowing people down, domestic violence, etc.). But that's not how the world works as of now. |
Addressing this point in general, not you specifically. Comments below are directed at everyone "out there".
Teaching privates and gambling, theoretically, could be a crime with victims in that it denies the government tax revenue which could say, go to fund the police and a traffic crackdown program that would save lives. For those with a statist/welfare state belief in government, those should be serious violations. Privates may also drive up costs and contribute to inequality.
Now, for those of us with a more libertarian mindset, such things should be free transactions between private parties.
Whether they are crimes or not should be dictated by your political theory of government. Just be consistent. Don't scream about the rich evading taxes and underfunded schools and inequality and then go out and teach privates in the spirit of unbridled capitalism. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
No, you said this-
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| Because all I see every day is Korean males exhibiting actions and behaviours that would earn them a criminal record within a few milliseconds if they were anywhere in the west. |
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Dude are you aware of such a thing as hyperbole? Because it doesn't seem you are able to distinguish the nuances of language and expression.
On page 6 you said:
| Steelrails wrote: |
| If you parked your car on the sidewalk by where I lived .., I wouldn't give two craps as long as you did it safely. |
So then here you have stated that if someone does not park their car safely, that you defecate twice? Is this true? maybe you should see the doctor, because you would probably die from repeated rapid bowel movements if you walked down the average Korean street.
Do you see the problem when you take every figure of speech 100% literally?
Or when you cling to such a deliberate misperception out of desperation to try and win a debate?
The fact that I used hyperbole and you didn't get it is a side issue that you are using to sidetrack. So that you can avoid the real issue.
Which is that average Korean male behaviour, including spitting; public urination; littering; jaywalking; resisting, lying to, verbally abusing or assaulting police officers; and traffic violations (that are very commonplace and overlooked in this country)- tend to be strongly condemned and not tolerated in other countries; and that such offences while often being punished by a ticket or fine, may also result in arrest or criminal charges. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
Which is that average Korean male behaviour, including spitting; public urination; littering; jaywalking; resisting, lying to, verbally abusing or assaulting police officers; and traffic violations (that are very commonplace and overlooked in this country)- tend to be strongly condemned and not tolerated in other countries; and that such offences while often being punished by a ticket or fine, may also result in arrest or criminal charges. |
Fine, lets move on from the hyperbole (strange, you didn't play the hyperbole card until it was obvious that these things DON'T earn you criminal records), and lets go with the edited statement above. I'd submit that based on my experience, spitting, littering, jaywalking, and traffic violations ARE NOT strongly condemned in other countries. Urinating in public depends on the context, as the condemnation of it tends to steadily decrease as the hour grows late and people get more drunk.
The Korean police do take some gruff from people that wouldn't be shrugged off back home. They often seem to understand that the guy vents and spews, then he calms down and you throw him in the back of the car. I've seen guys who resist and the cops stoically just drag them and throw them in the car. They don't start unloading with nightsticks. Yes, sometimes a rich guy does some of that and doesn't get charged with resisting. But other stuff might go on. I'm guessing that every guy you've seen arrested and charged, you haven't seen how the full process went on, including the day after.
Lastly, not everyone always gets charged with resisting arrest or lying to the cops back home. If the cops had to cite everyone who lied to them when they pulled them over, then the jails would be overflowing. You seem to think that cops don't ignore stuff or give warnings back home. Also, most Korean men don't abuse or assault police officers because as you claim, most police officers do nothing. You can't say this is commonplace and then say Korean police do nothing.
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| and that such offences while often being punished by a ticket or fine, may also result in arrest or criminal charges. |
You CANNOT be arrested for spitting (unless you do so on someone), jaywalking, littering (unless we're talking large scale dumping), and traffic violations. Those are civil infractions. Public urination at one time was a ticket, and recently it has started to get trumped up. In fact there are people "back home" who are trying to get the severity of these public urination charges reduced as they see it as ridiculously excessive. Almost everyone agrees that public urination should just be a ticket. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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And let’s not forget that, due to the inertia of the police and the non-enforcement of safety laws, people are dying in more ways than in just traffic accidents. The Sewol tragedy was largely caused by safety laws that were not enforced. There’s over 300 lives right there. Then there’s all the little “sewol’s” that happen right up and down this country due to laws being ignored because they aren't enforced. One case that comes readily to mind was the fire in Uijeongbu a couple months back when four people died. Why did they die, you ask? Why, because an illegally-parked car obstructed residents’ escape from the burning building. If that car had been towed (or had the driver parked elsewhere out of fear of a certain fine) those people would likely still be alive. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/four-killed-and-100-injured-in-apartment-fire-north-of-south-korean-capital-9969752.html
Then there are deaths because illegally parked cars obstruct emergency vehicles’ access to where they need to be. Ever seen the reserved spots for fire trucks situated between apartment buildings here? Probably not, because there’s inevitably a car parked on them. And the cops don't blink an eye.
It also stretches credulity to the breaking point to think that people aren’t dying because motorists won’t move for ambulances. Every study ever done shows the importance of ERT (Emergency Response Time) in saving lives. Every single study ever done! Korea’s ERT is scandalously bad because cars feel free to block ambulances paths with complete immunity. There are reasons why cars must concede way back home. It saves lives. That is not observed here, and police do nothing about it. They are at least partially culpable in those peoples' deaths.
Add to this the fact mentioned earlier - that Korea has the highest traffic fatality rate in the OECD. Twice the OECD average, to be precise. Then think of all the other ways people are dying (such as those cited above) because the cops don't want to do their jobs.
It's pathetic. And if you don't think that very large numbers of people are dying because of this then I can't help you. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| motorists won’t move for ambulances. |
This is because the drivers of ambulances and also police cars abuse their sirens. They blatantly use it without good reason- like a toy- everytime they simply want to pass somebody or get home quickly to watch the telly.
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| Then there’s all the little “sewol’s” that happen right up and down this country due to laws being ignored because they aren't enforced. |
And sadly these types of tragic accident happen with increasing and embarrassing regularity because Koreans seem to be unable to change their society from within. |
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sligo
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
It also stretches credulity to the breaking point to think that people aren’t dying because motorists won’t move for ambulances. Every study ever done shows the importance of ERT (Emergency Response Time) in saving lives. Every single study ever done! Korea’s ERT is scandalously bad because cars feel free to block ambulances paths with complete immunity. There are reasons why cars must concede way back home. It saves lives. That is not observed here, and police do nothing about it. They are at least partially culpable in those peoples' deaths. |
The n there are twunts like this who refuse to let an ambulance carrying a dying baby past because his car was nudged, and he wants to take photos
http://www.koreabang.com/2015/videos/ambulance-with-dying-baby-inside-stopped-for-insurance-claim.html
| Smithington wrote: |
Add to this the fact mentioned earlier - that Korea has the highest traffic fatality rate in the OECD. Twice the OECD average, to be precise. Then think of all the other ways people are dying (such as those cited above) because the cops don't want to do their jobs.
It's pathetic. And if you don't think that very large numbers of people are dying because of this then I can't help you. |
Actually Korea has the highest PEDESTRIAN deaths in the OECD, that is cars killing people who are not in cars, usually on the pavement
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20130523000539 |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Sligo, that article you posted about the ambulance has ruined my morning. There is something terribly wrong in a society where people have so little humanity that they don't move aside for ambulances.
"We need to deal with this insurance thing first...you know because of the accident that I caused when you were trying to save a child's life."
Good to know the police are investigating. 
If only there was a way situations like this could be prevented. |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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OP for the win!
Saw those "cops" in Itaewon last night. They are a complete waste of space. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| Smithington wrote: |
| motorists won’t move for ambulances. |
This is because the drivers of ambulances and also police cars abuse their sirens. They blatantly use it without good reason- like a toy- everytime they simply want to pass somebody or get home quickly to watch the telly.
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| Then there’s all the little “sewol’s” that happen right up and down this country due to laws being ignored because they aren't enforced. |
And sadly these types of tragic accident happen with increasing and embarrassing regularity because Koreans seem to be unable to change their society from within. |
I think this pretty much every day here. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| Yep, especially when it comes to protecting women. Just don't say it on the other site or they'll harp on you with their apologism. Keep your head low and if necessary punch and run if you ever end up in a dangerous situation. (Cause you know they will react only if it's a foreigner.) |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| You guys are wrong. The police absolutely do their job when it's time to shut down peaceful protesters or people in wheel chairs. They come out armed to the teeth. But of course those aren't the actual police. |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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chopstick
Joined: 03 Oct 2012
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| What do you want hardline fasci-cops with guns? I hear this kind of shit all the time and can't get my head around it. |
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