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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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 Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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From the OP's article: http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/phone/news/view.jsp?req_newsidx=179406
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In its ruling, the U.N. committee called Korea’s HIV testing policy an act of racism.
“The mandatory testing policy limited to foreign English teachers, who are not ethnically Korean, does not appear to be justified on public health grounds or any other grounds, and is a breach of the right to work without distinction of race, color, national or ethnic origin,” it said. |
"Limited to foreign teachers, who are not ethnically Korean." |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| You make the mistake of attributing to hatred, what is really just parental paranoia and ignorance. |
Sigh!
This "parental paranoiia and superstition" was a direct consequence of the campaign of slander and hatred directed at us. The police fabricated statistics about crimes committed by English teachers, as did the media and elected politicians. Radio shows, television programs and endless newspaper articles and editorials made us out to be a group to be feared. And that is why there was so much "parental paranoiia and ignorance." It didn't just materialize out of thin air. They werre being fed a massive lie about English teachers as being all sorts of things unpleasant, unclean and unworthy of teaching Korean children. Unqualified teachers, Aids-risks, forged degrees, rapists, drug addicts, potential rapists, paedophiles, criminals....on and on it went. Their "parental paranoiia and ignorance" was a result of a campaign intentionally aimed at fomenting and stoking that "paranoiia and ignorance." Not that the parents are off the hook. There is a very strong tendency in Korea to believe the worst of foreigners, and an unedifying willingness to unquestioningly believe whatever unpleasant thing is being said about them.
And let's get something straight. Steelrails was not the target of this racist campaign. He is an ethnic Korean here on a F-4 visa. The campaign of marginalization and vilification was not aimed at him. It was aimed at non-Koreans here on the E-2 visa. That's why he can talk nonsense like "it wasn't that bad." He wasn't the one being punched in the face. Of course it wasn't that bad...for him. Yet in this thread he has the audacity to use "us", "we" and "ourselves" when discussing the E-2 community's reactions to the abuse we received, as if he was in fact part of the demonized community. He wasn't. And his pretension that he was just adds insult to injury. He needs to shut up on this issue because he has zero credibility.
note: For anyone reading this thread who wasn't here a few years' back, may I direct your attention to the archives of Gusts of Popular Feeling. Read his coverage of the vilification of English teachers and make up your mind for yourselves.
http://populargusts.blogspot.kr/2014/10/being-wary-of-foreign-men-since-1876.html |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
From the OP's article: http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/phone/news/view.jsp?req_newsidx=179406
| Quote: |
In its ruling, the U.N. committee called Korea’s HIV testing policy an act of racism.
“The mandatory testing policy limited to foreign English teachers, who are not ethnically Korean, does not appear to be justified on public health grounds or any other grounds, and is a breach of the right to work without distinction of race, color, national or ethnic origin,” it said. |
"Limited to foreign teachers, who are not ethnically Korean." |
But that's just factually not true! I took the damn test, even on an F-4. So did a bunch of other ethnic Koreans I know. It's not limited. You know the UN, being a government run agency, is capable of getting things wrong.
| Smithington wrote: |
| It was aimed at non-Koreans here on the E-2 visa.. |
No, it was aimed at E-2 visa holders, which INCLUDE ethnic Koreans. Why is it so hard for you to accept that there are ethnic Koreans on E-2 visas? Why? Because your claim of it being a "racist" policy falls apart.
1. The policy applies to E-2 visa holders, including those of Korean descent. FACT
2. The policy does not apply to NON-KOREAN F-visa holders. FACT
3. The policy does not apply to foreigners who are not here to be English teachers . FACT
4. The F-visas are not teaching visas. FACT
5. Not all foreigners are E-2s. FACT
Each of those things in part refute the claim that this policy is wholly racist and meant to demonize foreigners. These are facts and are irrefutable. Add in concepts like Korean parents likely supporting HIV and drug testing of Korean teachers, Korean teacher's unions, and certain screenings done for public school teachers, and you have even more evidence that the racism claim is rather weak.
| Quote: |
| He is an ethnic Korean here on a F-4 visa. |
And I took the damn test because I work at a public school. Stop spreading misinformation and believing unsupported hysteria.
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| The campaign of marginalization and vilification was not aimed at him. |
Believe it or not, most Koreans can grasp the concept of me being American, even though I have Korean blood. My damn 3rd grade students grasped it. Apparently you have trouble with that.
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| It was aimed at non-Koreans here on the E-2 visa. |
It was aimed at ALL people on the E-2 visa, ethnic Korean or not. This was because previously there were virtually NO restrictions on E-2 visas. Does that sound like good policy?
| Quote: |
| That's why he can talk nonsense like "it wasn't that bad." He wasn't the one being punched in the face. Of course it wasn't that bad...for him. Yet in this thread he has the audacity to use "us", "we" and "ourselves" when discussing the E-2 community's reactions to the abuse we received, as if he was in fact part of the demonized community. He wasn't. And his pretension that he was just adds insult to injury. He needs to shut up on this issue because he has zero credibility. |
Dude, there were teachers in my same town who were non-Korean. No one was demonizing them. No one was running away. There are non-Korean NETs who were hear at the time who think the claims of total demonization and such are overblown. The general sense I got was that the overwhelming majority of Koreans just wanted to keep out the bad apples. They didn't want the English teacher they knew and liked to be kicked out. They didn't sever their friendship with their foreign friends. They just wanted to stop the near-unregulated flow and try and reduce the knucklehead element.
| Quote: |
| http://populargusts.blogspot.kr/2014/10/being-wary-of-foreign-men-since-1876.html |
First, are English teachers so above everyone that they should be exempt from negative articles? The bashers here certainly have no problem with negative articles generalizing Koreans and portraying them negatively, but apparently its wrong to do that about NETS. Either both are racist or neither one is, but not one is so and not the other. Also, when compared to back home, where you get 2 major stories every day, instead of Korea where you get a major story every 2 years, I think we've got it relatively good compared to "immigrant demonization" back home.
If they really were demonizing us, they would have rioted, staged a massive protest in Gwanghwamun, pulled down their pants, and yanked their kids out of hagwons faster than you can say MERS. Instead the story was a bit of a buzz for all of 5 minutes and has since faded into the background. If you really felt demonized, you'd do things like escape under the cover of night. Instead we all just partied same as before, got puke drunk, didn't get jumped by gangs, were thrown passed out into the back of taxis and taken home safely, ate at restaurants same as before, collected a paycheck, and carried on.
Now, one can say that groups like the AES were motivated by xenophobia and that some of the anti-NET people were racist dead-enders. That doesn't mean ALL people were motivated by racism.
Just a sidebar here- When you ask other NETs, "You ever smoke pot?", are you more surprised by a yes or no or not surprised by either one? If you ask a Korean if they ever smoked pot, are you surprised by a "yes" answer? Do Koreans regard smoking pot a social taboo and serious crime? How much do you wanna bet that some big mouth NET went on and on about how much people smoke pot back home to his adult education class? Just saying that such things MIGHT have something to do with that perception. Things aren't wholly driven by the Korean media, we do sometimes bring it on ourselves and there might be a kernel of truth to some things. That doesn't mean they think we are all drug addicts though as I'd imagine most Koreans would be shocked if you told them you were a pot smoker.
| Quote: |
| Unqualified teachers, Aids-risks, forged degrees, rapists, drug addicts, potential rapists, paedophiles, criminals....on and on it went...., and an unedifying willingness to unquestioningly believe whatever unpleasant thing is being said about them. |
To continue my line of thinking above, if you told a Korean you personally knew that you were HIV positive/a pedophile/on drugs/had a criminal history/etc. would they be A)Surprised or B)Not surprised. After all, if we were truly demonized and Koreans unquestioningly believed it as you said, there should be virtually no surprise when you admit such a thing. If your principal really though you were a rapist drug dealer with HIV, he wouldn't call you over to share his soju glass and do 5 so-make bombs with him. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
From the OP's article: http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/phone/news/view.jsp?req_newsidx=179406
| Quote: |
In its ruling, the U.N. committee called Korea’s HIV testing policy an act of racism.
“The mandatory testing policy limited to foreign English teachers, who are not ethnically Korean, does not appear to be justified on public health grounds or any other grounds, and is a breach of the right to work without distinction of race, color, national or ethnic origin,” it said. |
"Limited to foreign teachers, who are not ethnically Korean." |
But that's just factually not true! I took the damn test, even on an F-4. So did a bunch of other ethnic Koreans I know. It's not limited. You know the UN, being a government run agency, is capable of getting things wrong.
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Before you go and claim that the UN Tribunal erred, you should tell us when you took the test. Month and year. |
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sligo
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Ethnic Koreans (who are on E-2 visas) may have taken the test, but they have a way (F-4 visa) to avoid it. Maybe these people were unaware of the F-4 visa, so that is why thy went the E-2 route, also, as Koreans are paid less than Western types, maybe they saw the E-2 as a route to higher pay. The reason why these people are on an E visa is irrelevant, what is relevant, is they have a way around the tests, that other people of the same nationality don't have.
If one focusses solely on hagwons and private accademies, it is only the non-Korean, western teachers who have to take these tests. The Koreans who work in the accademy doesn't have to to test, they don't have to register their finger prints, and they don't have to provide a criminal history to get a job. This is also the case for the F-4 visa holder i worked with at a university. Funnily enough she (Korean American who couldn't speak a word of Korean) didn't think it was unfair or discriminatory either.
I have no problem with keeping young and vulnerable people safe, just don't lock the door and leave the windows open! If you are going to test one group of people (for what ever reason) who work with children, then test everyone.
On a side note, if Korea really wants to stop HIV, will it start testing the Ajeoshis who go to the Philipines on "Golfing Holidays"? There are many dangers connnecter to gettinng one in the hole! |
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tophatcat
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Location: under the hat
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
From the OP's article: http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/phone/news/view.jsp?req_newsidx=179406
| Quote: |
In its ruling, the U.N. committee called Korea’s HIV testing policy an act of racism.
“The mandatory testing policy limited to foreign English teachers, who are not ethnically Korean, does not appear to be justified on public health grounds or any other grounds, and is a breach of the right to work without distinction of race, color, national or ethnic origin,” it said. |
"Limited to foreign teachers, who are not ethnically Korean." |
But that's just factually not true! I took the damn test, even on an F-4. So did a bunch of other ethnic Koreans I know. It's not limited. You know the UN, being a government run agency, is capable of getting things wrong.
| Smithington wrote: |
| It was aimed at non-Koreans here on the E-2 visa.. |
No, it was aimed at E-2 visa holders, which INCLUDE ethnic Koreans. Why is it so hard for you to accept that there are ethnic Koreans on E-2 visas? Why? Because your claim of it being a "racist" policy falls apart.
1. The policy applies to E-2 visa holders, including those of Korean descent. FACT
2. The policy does not apply to NON-KOREAN F-visa holders. FACT
3. The policy does not apply to foreigners who are not here to be English teachers . FACT
4. The F-visas are not teaching visas. FACT
5. Not all foreigners are E-2s. FACT
Each of those things in part refute the claim that this policy is wholly racist and meant to demonize foreigners. These are facts and are irrefutable. Add in concepts like Korean parents likely supporting HIV and drug testing of Korean teachers, Korean teacher's unions, and certain screenings done for public school teachers, and you have even more evidence that the racism claim is rather weak.
| Quote: |
| He is an ethnic Korean here on a F-4 visa. |
And I took the damn test because I work at a public school. Stop spreading misinformation and believing unsupported hysteria.
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| The campaign of marginalization and vilification was not aimed at him. |
Believe it or not, most Koreans can grasp the concept of me being American, even though I have Korean blood. My damn 3rd grade students grasped it. Apparently you have trouble with that.
| Quote: |
| It was aimed at non-Koreans here on the E-2 visa. |
It was aimed at ALL people on the E-2 visa, ethnic Korean or not. This was because previously there were virtually NO restrictions on E-2 visas. Does that sound like good policy?
| Quote: |
| That's why he can talk nonsense like "it wasn't that bad." He wasn't the one being punched in the face. Of course it wasn't that bad...for him. Yet in this thread he has the audacity to use "us", "we" and "ourselves" when discussing the E-2 community's reactions to the abuse we received, as if he was in fact part of the demonized community. He wasn't. And his pretension that he was just adds insult to injury. He needs to shut up on this issue because he has zero credibility. |
Dude, there were teachers in my same town who were non-Korean. No one was demonizing them. No one was running away. There are non-Korean NETs who were hear at the time who think the claims of total demonization and such are overblown. The general sense I got was that the overwhelming majority of Koreans just wanted to keep out the bad apples. They didn't want the English teacher they knew and liked to be kicked out. They didn't sever their friendship with their foreign friends. They just wanted to stop the near-unregulated flow and try and reduce the knucklehead element.
| Quote: |
| http://populargusts.blogspot.kr/2014/10/being-wary-of-foreign-men-since-1876.html |
First, are English teachers so above everyone that they should be exempt from negative articles? The bashers here certainly have no problem with negative articles generalizing Koreans and portraying them negatively, but apparently its wrong to do that about NETS. Either both are racist or neither one is, but not one is so and not the other. Also, when compared to back home, where you get 2 major stories every day, instead of Korea where you get a major story every 2 years, I think we've got it relatively good compared to "immigrant demonization" back home.
If they really were demonizing us, they would have rioted, staged a massive protest in Gwanghwamun, pulled down their pants, and yanked their kids out of hagwons faster than you can say MERS. Instead the story was a bit of a buzz for all of 5 minutes and has since faded into the background. If you really felt demonized, you'd do things like escape under the cover of night. Instead we all just partied same as before, got puke drunk, didn't get jumped by gangs, were thrown passed out into the back of taxis and taken home safely, ate at restaurants same as before, collected a paycheck, and carried on.
Now, one can say that groups like the AES were motivated by xenophobia and that some of the anti-NET people were racist dead-enders. That doesn't mean ALL people were motivated by racism.
Just a sidebar here- When you ask other NETs, "You ever smoke pot?", are you more surprised by a yes or no or not surprised by either one? If you ask a Korean if they ever smoked pot, are you surprised by a "yes" answer? Do Koreans regard smoking pot a social taboo and serious crime? How much do you wanna bet that some big mouth NET went on and on about how much people smoke pot back home to his adult education class? Just saying that such things MIGHT have something to do with that perception. Things aren't wholly driven by the Korean media, we do sometimes bring it on ourselves and there might be a kernel of truth to some things. That doesn't mean they think we are all drug addicts though as I'd imagine most Koreans would be shocked if you told them you were a pot smoker.
| Quote: |
| Unqualified teachers, Aids-risks, forged degrees, rapists, drug addicts, potential rapists, paedophiles, criminals....on and on it went...., and an unedifying willingness to unquestioningly believe whatever unpleasant thing is being said about them. |
To continue my line of thinking above, if you told a Korean you personally knew that you were HIV positive/a pedophile/on drugs/had a criminal history/etc. would they be A)Surprised or B)Not surprised. After all, if we were truly demonized and Koreans unquestioningly believed it as you said, there should be virtually no surprise when you admit such a thing. If your principal really though you were a rapist drug dealer with HIV, he wouldn't call you over to share his soju glass and do 5 so-make bombs with him. |
What's up with all your cursing? It violates TOS. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| tophatcat wrote: |
| What's up with all your cursing? It violates TOS. |
What's with Steelrails cursing? Why, that's an easy one. He's not thrilled that other posters are not kowtowing to his pronouncements on all things Korean and on all foreigners in Korea.
Me? I haven't cursed in this thread, but I am surprised that people are still trying to reason with Steelrails. That ship sailed long, long ago. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| sligo wrote: |
Ethnic Koreans (who are on E-2 visas) may have taken the test, but they have a way (F-4 visa) to avoid it. Maybe these people were unaware of the F-4 visa, so that is why thy went the E-2 route, also, as Koreans are paid less than Western types, maybe they saw the E-2 as a route to higher pay. The reason why these people are on an E visa is irrelevant, what is relevant, is they have a way around the tests, that other people of the same nationality don't have.
If one focusses solely on hagwons and private accademies, it is only the non-Korean, western teachers who have to take these tests. The Koreans who work in the accademy doesn't have to to test, they don't have to register their finger prints, and they don't have to provide a criminal history to get a job. This is also the case for the F-4 visa holder i worked with at a university. Funnily enough she (Korean American who couldn't speak a word of Korean) didn't think it was unfair or discriminatory either.
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Not all Koreans can apply for the F-4. They have to have certain paperwork, documents, and registry available. Often they don't have those records. I was lucky that my adoptive parents kept meticulous records. Not everyone is so lucky. And again, IF YOU TEACH IN PUBLIC SCHOOL, YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE TESTS, EVEN ON AN F-4!
| Quote: |
| If one focusses solely on hagwons and private accademies, it is only the non-Korean, western teachers who have to take these tests. The Koreans who work in the accademy doesn't have to to test |
Again, WRONG. Ethnic Koreans on an E-2 visa who work at hagwons have to take the tests as well.
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Before you go and claim that the UN Tribunal erred, you should tell us when you took the test. Month and year. |
Every March from 2009-2014. I remember the needle going into my arm. I remember having to pee into the cup. Sorry this doesn't jive with the "demonization agenda". |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| tophatcat wrote: |
| What's up with all your cursing? It violates TOS. |
What's with Steelrails cursing? Why, that's an easy one. He's not thrilled that other posters are not kowtowing to his pronouncements on all things Korean and on all foreigners in Korea.
Me? I haven't cursed in this thread, but I am surprised that people are still trying to reason with Steelrails. That ship sailed long, long ago. |
I'm upset because lies and half-truths are getting peddled around that have been repeatedly disproven, yet continued to be accepted as facts. Apparently in spite of people pointing out that ethnic Koreans on F-visas have to take the tests as well at public schools, that ethnic Koreans on E-2s have to take the tests as well, that non-ethnic Korean foreigners on F-visas DO NOT have to take the tests for hagwons, and that foreigners on other visas do not have to take the tests, people still scream "Foreigners have to take the tests but ethnic Koreans don't" which is FACTUALLY UNTRUE. What people should do is admit that they didn't fully understand the situation and adjust their view, given the facts.
If I'm being so unreasonable, how come no one has succesfully challenged the facts that I have stipulated? Those facts prove that the discrimination that is claimed is not the case in fact. Those facts are the meat of the case, but instead of addressing them it's "Steelrails is unreasonable". The facts speak for themselves. Far from being some mastermind campaign of demonization, the HIV policy is typical (Korean) government policy- haphazard, labyrinthine, slipshod, and muddled with unclear directions. But it is not some black-white policy of Koreans vs. all foreigners as part of a vast conspiracy to tar and feather us.
Anyways, sorry for my hardly ever use of the Big Big D. A word that was last shocking when Clarke Gable was a big movie star and isn't even blocked by the swear filter. Nice to see that once again, people are arguing the poster instead of the point. |
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sligo
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Again, WRONG. Ethnic Koreans on an E-2 visa who work at hagwons have to take the tests as well.
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I think you need to read again, in a hagwon a western teacher has no choice but to take the HIV test. Anyone who can claim an F-4 is exempt.
The conditions for an F-4:
A person who had had Korean nationality and acquired foreign nationality
Documents which prove the fact that he or she was a Korean nationality
Citizenship certificate
Renunciation of Korean citizenship form
A person with a parent(s) or grandparent(s) of foreign nationality who once held Korean nationality.
Document which proves the fact that his or her immediate ascendant was a Korean citizen
Document(s) which proves the reason, date, month and year of acquiring a foreign nationality of oneself and one's immediate descendants. (ex. copy of citizenship certificate)
Document which proves the relation of ascendant and descendant (ex. birth certificate)
Renunciation of Korean citizenship form of oneself and one’s immediate descendants
Important Notice: You may need additional documents related to the law of nationality and military.
Please contact the Jurisdiction Korean Consular Office directly in your area.
http://usa.mofa.go.kr/english/am/usa/visa/visa/index.jsp
Pretty much anyone who has any (blood) connection to a Korean can get an F-4, so therefore they all can be exempt from the HIV test. If they are too stupid to apply for an F visa rather than an E2, well, that would be part of an intelligence (or lack of it) debate.
Not applying for an F-4 and not being able to apply for an F-4 visa are 2 very different possitions! |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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The UN Tribunal did not err. It really doesn't bear on the discriminatory policy whether someone online says they had to take an HIV test while on an F-4 in connection with a public school job. Such an occasion would be incidental to the targets of discrimination.
The law targets E-2s and E-6s.
The Immigration Control Act is online:
http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/APCITY/UNPAN011498.pdf
http://asiacatalyst.org/blog/2012/08/commentary-republic-of-korea-gets-unearned-praise-again-for-lifting-hiv-travel-ban.html
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Meanwhile, as I pointed out back in 2010, in order to make real progress, the Korean government needs to address the discriminatory AIDS Prevention Act. Article 8(3) of the Act requires 'long-term sojourners', specifically those under the E-6 employment visa (e.g., entertainers and professional athletes) to HIV-negative confirmation statements along with their visa applications. If these travelers are found to be HIV-positive, the government can invoke Article 46(1) of the Immigration Control Act to deport them, especially if the government finds that they are having sexual relations with Koreans.
In addition, foreign-language instructors and others visiting South Korea under an E-2 visa are also still required to undergo an HIV test within 90 days of entry. This requirement has recently been challenged before the U.N. International Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. |
That some ethnic Koreans might be on E-2s cannot save the policy from discrimination. A single drop of Korean blood does not insulate against clear discriminatory intent. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| sligo wrote: |
I think you need to read again, in a hagwon a western teacher has no choice but to take the HIV test. Anyone who can claim an F-4 is exempt.
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Again, westerners on F-visas can be exempt from HIV tests at hagwons. Those of Korean descent on E-2s will have to take them. Also, tests are at the whim of hagwons, so they can have a policy of requiring F-4s and/or their Korean employees to take them as well.
| Quote: |
The conditions for an F-4:
A person who had had Korean nationality and acquired foreign nationality
Documents which prove the fact that he or she was a Korean nationality
Citizenship certificate
Renunciation of Korean citizenship form
A person with a parent(s) or grandparent(s) of foreign nationality who once held Korean nationality.
Document which proves the fact that his or her immediate ascendant was a Korean citizen
Document(s) which proves the reason, date, month and year of acquiring a foreign nationality of oneself and one's immediate descendants. (ex. copy of citizenship certificate)
Document which proves the relation of ascendant and descendant (ex. birth certificate)
Renunciation of Korean citizenship form of oneself and one’s immediate descendants
Important Notice: You may need additional documents related to the law of nationality and military.
Please contact the Jurisdiction Korean Consular Office directly in your area.
http://usa.mofa.go.kr/english/am/usa/visa/visa/index.jsp
Pretty much anyone who has any (blood) connection to a Korean can get an F-4, so therefore they all can be exempt from the HIV test. If they are too stupid to apply for an F visa rather than an E2, well, that would be part of an intelligence (or lack of it) debate. |
Actually not. As you can see that's a rather extensive list of documents and many times those have been lost/destroyed. Many Korean-Americans go for the E-2 simply because it's easier to jump through the E-2 hoops. Most of them aren't going to spend hours and hours finding relatives all over the country and digging up old paperwork and dealing with bureaucracy when there is a more expedited visa that gets them their job, especially those that are only here for a year or two of teach n' travel. Not to mention you have Korean-Americans whose parents and such refuse to release the documentation because they want their kid to keep going to college or are traumatized by their time in Korea and don't want them going over there. You also have 3rd generation Koreans and the records their grandparents have (usually Korean War era) are spotty at best.
| Quote: |
| Not applying for an F-4 and not being able to apply for an F-4 visa are 2 very different possitions! |
Yes, there is the F-4 visa. The F-4 visa is not a teaching visa. The F-4 is a general residency and employment visa. It is a visa that is similar to that in virtually every country around the world regarding ancestry and admission to the country of that ancestry.
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| That some ethnic Koreans might be on E-2s cannot save the policy from discrimination. A single drop of Korean blood does not insulate against clear discriminatory intent. |
But it does save it from a charge of racism. Immigration by its very nature is discriminatory. Foreign workers have different requirements for entry and employment compared to citizens and permanent/long-term residents. That's a fact of life. Is it racist/discrimination that westerners on F-visas don't have to take the tests but Korean Americans on E-2s do?
Now that the standards and policy has been scrutinized, we can clearly see that it doesn't fit the easy descriptions of "tests for foreigners, but not for those of Korean descent". That's just not true. The truest statement is- "Tests for those on E-2 visas, including those of Korean descent; tests for those on other visas, regardless of ethnicity, for those employed at public schools; and possible tests for other visas, regardless of ethnicity, at private institutes". Every subsequent examination of this issue should start with that as its baseline, because that is the truest description of the policy. It is MORE TRUE than the other descriptions posted by other posters. |
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slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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do E6 visas really have to be tested? there are tons of artices from 2010 about eliminating the aids tests for E6 entertainment visas. i have no idea if that really happened or if it was fake PR.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/10/117_75193.html
at the time i thought it was weird that foreign prostitutes on E6 entertainment visas working at roomsalons and noraebangs would be exempt from being tested while foreign language teachers weren't. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| That some ethnic Koreans might be on E-2s cannot save the policy from discrimination. A single drop of Korean blood does not insulate against clear discriminatory intent. |
But it does save it from a charge of racism. Immigration by its very nature is discriminatory. Foreign workers have different requirements for entry and employment compared to citizens and permanent/long-term residents. That's a fact of life. Is it racist/discrimination that westerners on F-visas don't have to take the tests but Korean Americans on E-2s do?
Now that the standards and policy has been scrutinized, we can clearly see that it doesn't fit the easy descriptions of "tests for foreigners, but not for those of Korean descent". That's just not true. The truest statement is- "Tests for those on E-2 visas, including those of Korean descent; tests for those on other visas, regardless of ethnicity, for those employed at public schools; and possible tests for other visas, regardless of ethnicity, at private institutes". Every subsequent examination of this issue should start with that as its baseline, because that is the truest description of the policy. It is MORE TRUE than the other descriptions posted by other posters. |
I don't understand the focus here on F-4 visas. Do you really think Korean perceptions of young white (or black) males hinge on these kind of nuances? If a white male marries a Korean or has a child with a Korean and thereby escapes the HIV and drug tests, do you really think that makes it all okay? I would like you to confront what it's like to be perceived as white in Korea: it's privileged and wangtta all at the same time.
It's not just Korea. I went through this nonsense recently when trying to find housing in Beijing; I found two places I liked, but the landlords did not want to rent to a foreigner because of my perceived sexual mores and drug habits. I have a black colleague who went through much worse just trying to find a place to stay for a couple of weeks. I imagine even Japan has this kind of nonsense.
The sexual and drug revolutions never came to Asia. Young whites may as well be long-haired hippies to some Koreans, especially the more naive ones who outspokenly profess what they believe are simply progressive views. If you look at the HIV and drug tests as a proxy for excluding the vestiges of the sexual and drug revolutions in the West, the racism becomes pretty apparent. Pretty apparent because many in the West do not subscribe to those viewpoints or behaviors, let alone the fact that such viewpoints should never reach the classroom anyway.
The history in Korea immediately preceding the legislation proscribing such tests supports the racist and discriminatory intent. Many on this thread have discussed that history, and some have lived it. Like I said, Korea is hardly isolated in holding these views of young whites or Westerners.
And yet for Korea to test E-2 teachers for drugs and HIV totally violates Korea's international obligations. Specifically, Korea is to respect and permit the right to work of all individuals, regardless of race, color, or nationality.
UN rulings like this one make whites and blacks more confident and secure because we feel as if there is at least some oversight against discriminatory practices against which we have no other political recourse. In Korea and China, we foreigners have no avenue for protest or self-representation. If we did, maybe advocacy efforts could have defeated this discriminatory policy long before it was ever brought before the UN. In the meantime, whites and blacks are a captive minority with scant other recourse for protection at the national or lower levels. I think if you view the ruling in this way, and not as merely an opportunity for bashers to excoriate Korea, you will see the UN CERD decision as a landmark and historic event in Korean history. |
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SHGator428
Joined: 05 Sep 2014
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Didn't rails dude used to claim he was on an E2? |
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