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Will the E-2 ever be free from the employer? Like Japan
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jcd



Joined: 13 Mar 2012

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

matthews_world wrote:
I've never taught in Japan but what many employers are looking for there are language skills. I guess that's why many choose S. Korea as an alternative.

Also, here in China, marriage isn't a gateway to citizenship. It's basically a stay visa. When we qualify for a position (education, work experience) we need to register work permits and subsequent foreign expert certificate (Z-visa) with the exit bureau or we could be absconded for teaching illegally.

An option is a business visa under the guise of education consuting where you control your own visa and work schedule. Usually need a BA and some experience.

No direct path to citizenship here in China. Even if you are married for 5 years you just get a permanent residence.


Although I didn't opt for one (F-299 by work experience) you guys shouldn't knock F-visas.


This logic pops up everywhere.
We could apply it to pollution or crime or the quality of products. People in China have it way worse. But should people be happy if they get a battery that leaks; and then say well it could have exploded had I bought a Chinese battery.


They are not making the F and D-10 visas to be nice to you. They are creating the new rules and prolonging doing what is right and fair. It's better than before but it's still wrong ethically.

A better comparison is that Koreans have the freedom to change jobs while working in the US, so we should too.

A lot of people would give notice and opt out of their contract to go to a better job, even if they have to pay the recruiter and flight fee.

I read in another post that it is illegal to require an amount of money to be paid if you quit a job. I don't know if this true?, but I would rather have that amount written in the contract. There should be some fair arrangement that both parties can agree to.
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isitts



Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jcd wrote:
This logic pops up everywhere.

At least is actually logic….as opposed to whatever this is…
jcd wrote:
We could apply it to pollution or crime or the quality of products. People in China have it way worse. But should people be happy if they get a battery that leaks; and then say well it could have exploded had I bought a Chinese battery.

??

jcd wrote:
They are not making the F and D-10 visas to be nice to you.

Um…I suppose not, but they seemed to at least serve the various needs of the different types of employees that work here. The D-10 addressed the problem of time constraints, visa runs, and getting new documents (like the FBI check) when transferring jobs.

jcd wrote:
It's better than before but it's still wrong ethically.

Umm….ok.

jcd wrote:

A better comparison is that Koreans have the freedom to change jobs while working in the US, so we should too.

Right. So we’ll compare it with the Korean graduates that are ALTs in the US public schools or working in our cram schools. That’s fair enough. But weren’t you talking about business visas before? Bringing China into the discussion is a good comparison as it shows that different countries have different arrangements with their visas.

jcd wrote:
A lot of people would give notice and opt out of their contract to go to a better job, even if they have to pay the recruiter and flight fee.

Speaking of ethics, if you have minor quibbles with your employer as the ones you’ve mentioned, it might just be ethical for you to finish your contract and then find a new employer.

If you like Japan’s set up better, then maybe you should keep working there. If you want to work here, you’ll use Korea’s setup. If you go to China or wherever, you’ll use theirs. No one here feels as indignant about it as you do. I’m sorry.
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jcd



Joined: 13 Mar 2012

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isitts wrote:
jcd wrote:
This logic pops up everywhere.

At least is actually logic….as opposed to whatever this is…
jcd wrote:
We could apply it to pollution or crime or the quality of products. People in China have it way worse. But should people be happy if they get a battery that leaks; and then say well it could have exploded had I bought a Chinese battery.

??

jcd wrote:
They are not making the F and D-10 visas to be nice to you.

Um…I suppose not, but they seemed to at least serve the various needs of the different types of employees that work here. The D-10 addressed the problem of time constraints, visa runs, and getting new documents (like the FBI check) when transferring jobs.

jcd wrote:
It's better than before but it's still wrong ethically.

Umm….ok.

jcd wrote:

A better comparison is that Koreans have the freedom to change jobs while working in the US, so we should too.

Right. So we’ll compare it with the Korean graduates that are ALTs in the US public schools or working in our cram schools. That’s fair enough. But weren’t you talking about business visas before? Bringing China into the discussion is a good comparison as it shows that different countries have different arrangements with their visas.

jcd wrote:
A lot of people would give notice and opt out of their contract to go to a better job, even if they have to pay the recruiter and flight fee.

Speaking of ethics, if you have minor quibbles with your employer as the ones you’ve mentioned, it might just be ethical for you to finish your contract and then find a new employer.

If you like Japan’s set up better, then maybe you should keep working there. If you want to work here, you’ll use Korea’s setup. If you go to China or wherever, you’ll use theirs. No one here feels as indignant about it as you do. I’m sorry.




1) That was me using the same logic and it's bad logic. To say at least it's logic, means that any logic good, as oppose to just breathing being instinctive and not thinking

2) So you agree with me "I suppose not" but then you backtrack.

3)uhm okay is kinda foppish. Yes it's unethical if you don't allow someone to change employers if they find another sponsor. I can point to numerous people who are being hounded by their employer and afraid to give notice because they might be given a really hard time.

4)Just compare them to temporary workers in the US. That is what they are.


5) I never mentioned any minor quibbles with any employer. Good try CSI milquetoastville. And I don't have any quibble now, but I have had some real idiots for employers here. What if my employer lied to me or cheated me? Is it ethical that I finish my contract?
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nicwr2002



Joined: 17 Aug 2011

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that if you want a less restrictive E2 visa then you are going to have to give up the free accommodations and free airfare. My guess is that they made the E2 so restrctive to protect business from people who would come here just to change jobs as soon as they landed. That would be terrible if I was an academy owner and I paid about $5k just to have the person I hired quit on me first thing.
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jcd



Joined: 13 Mar 2012

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right. That is why I think they should be allowed to write into the contract a fair amount when someone quits. 800 for a plane ticket 1000 for the recruiter, even though they will probably get the money back from the recruiter and the recruiter will just find another person who fits the job.
With most recruiters the academy doesn't have to pay them if it doesn't work out with the teacher.

The accommodation is not an expense that they will lose. They will just give it to the sucker who will work for the idiot.

With notice it is not difficult at all for them to find another employee.


5000 dollars is way off.
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nicwr2002



Joined: 17 Aug 2011

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jcd wrote:
Right. That is why I think they should be allowed to write into the contract a fair amount when someone quits. 800 for a plane ticket 1000 for the recruiter, even though they will probably get the money back from the recruiter and the recruiter will just find another person who fits the job.
With most recruiters the academy doesn't have to pay them if it doesn't work out with the teacher.

The accommodation is not an expense that they will lose. They will just give it to the sucker who will work for the idiot.

With notice it is not difficult at all for them to find another employee.


5000 dollars is way off.


5k is mostly certainly not way off even if you are living outside of Seoul. For my area I know that the school will need to put down at least 3K deposit for a 1 room and another 1k for the plane ticket. Not to mention that if the teacher quits, the school still needs to make the monthly rent payments for the remainder of the contract. Rent would be around 300 dollars per month. There's 4k right there for the deposit and plane ticket plus how ever much the recruiter's fees were.
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jcd



Joined: 13 Mar 2012

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah.
They will get the fee back from the recruiter. Recruiters offer guarantees to the academy. The recruiters work for the academy, and will break even finding the next person.

They will not lose money on the apartment. They just give that apartment to another teacher. How will they lose money on a deposit? It's their money and they get it back.

If they aren't so weird about teachers leaving, then teachers will give a months notice. The academy can find someone in a week or less.
They don't pay for tests or immigrations fees.

All they lose is the plane ticket. Most of them now don't even offer the initial one way flight.
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Fallacy



Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Location: ex-ROK

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicwr2002 wrote:
I believe that if you want a less restrictive E2 visa then you are going to have to give up the free accommodations and free airfare.
This. Quid pro quo. I second nicwr2002.
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jcd



Joined: 13 Mar 2012

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallacy wrote:
nicwr2002 wrote:
I believe that if you want a less restrictive E2 visa then you are going to have to give up the free accommodations and free airfare.
This. Quid pro quo. I second nicwr2002.


They have to give the accommodation. Who is going to come here and teach in Daejeon and find their own apartment?


I don't think they can go much lower than they are at now.
The plane ticket is already gone.
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nicwr2002



Joined: 17 Aug 2011

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jcd wrote:
Fallacy wrote:
nicwr2002 wrote:
I believe that if you want a less restrictive E2 visa then you are going to have to give up the free accommodations and free airfare.
This. Quid pro quo. I second nicwr2002.


They have to give the accommodation. Who is going to come here and teach in Daejeon and find their own apartment?


I don't think they can go much lower than they are at now.
The plane ticket is already gone.


You have to find your own apt in Japan. There are people who like Korea as well.

I think finding an apt here will be a lot easier than Japan though. In my experience the apt owners in Japan are striaght up racist. It took almost an hour to find an apt for me. When the agent would tell the owner that the person wanting to rent was a foreigner they would hang up the phone. Plus, that key money that you get back here is not given back to you in Japan (unless it changed recently). So say bye to that $2,000.
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