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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
SR
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| Look, there are legitimate times that cars almost hit people here. Too many of them. |
Smith
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| Highest pedestrian fatality rate in the OECD (twice the average). Cars ARE hitting people, injuring many and killing many others. |
Now, which one do you figure is closer to the mark?
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Well, I am agreeing that the accident rate here is too high. What I was mentioning is that things are getting better and there have been some changes, specifically cars yielding at the crosswalks for pedestrians. I was also saying that some people, which I have personally witnessed, tend to get a bit over-the-top in stating how much danger they actually were in. Sometimes you were legitimately in danger of serious injury or death. Other times it's like screaming about the next car over going 5 kph above the speed limit and carrying on that they "almost killed you" and came within inches of hitting you. I've seen people get hysterical over a car "almost hitting and killing them" that was going like 5 kph, had no angle to hit them, and the driver was clearly watching everyone and had a good bead on the distance. They just think they should have a massive buffer around them.
CC, I know you drive so I have to ask, when turning right on green, do you expect the car in front of you to stop for pedestrians at the crosswalk or to drive on through? I sure expect them to stop, because if I didn't I'd rear end them. When I first drove in Seoul in 2011, I didn't notice this at all. Now it seems the norm (though some knuckleheads do break the law), does that jive with your experience?
Look, I'm actually not that much in disagreement on the overall state of Korean driving conditions, but I am pointing out that the crossing thing has certainly improved and that sometimes, I think people overstate the degree of danger that they were in. Some of the stories seem a bit over the top or a bit too frequent to be completely plausible. |
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Lazio
Joined: 15 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| when turning right on green, do you expect the car in front of you to stop for pedestrians at the crosswalk or to drive on through? I sure expect them to stop, because if I didn't I'd rear end them. When I first drove in Seoul in 2011, I didn't notice this at all. Now it seems the norm (though some knuckleheads do break the law), does that jive with your experience? |
Leave this “do you expect them to stop” nonsense alone.
You should be ready to stop at all times while driving, keeping sufficient distance from the vehicle in front of you (that is another thing that many drivers fail to do so here) and choosing the right speed.
Brake lights come out in the vehicle in front of you so you push the brakes too. Simple as that.
Sure some will stop, but just as many will honk at you and desperately trying to pass you if you stop. Even if 9 out of ten cars stop, it’s still bad.
And what do you have to say about motorbikes of all sizes shooting across the pedestrian crossing from all angles. This bugs me the most. Somehow they think the red light doesn’t apply to motorbikes. And I’m not talking about an empty crosswalk. It’s with full of people.
If the police wasn’t so impotent here they could bring in some serious money with a major crack down.
Your definiton of danger and close calls would be a whole lot different if you had a child. |
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yodanole
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| I'm guessing that some here are in need of a refresher visit to a busy city on their home planet to see firsthand that poor driving habits are not all that uncommon. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| yodanole wrote: |
| I'm guessing that some here are in need of a refresher visit to a busy city on their home planet to see firsthand that poor driving habits are not all that uncommon. |
I go home once a year at least and (because of my Korean experience) am very conscious of the driving culture back home. I will sit outside a coffee shop at a major intersection and watch the traffic. I see absolutely none of the lawlessness and insanity that I would see in Korea.
And for the umpteenth time, it's not just an urban traffic problem in Korea. It's a cultural problem. I have lived in plenty of rural areas. They drive just as badly and selfishly there. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Lazio wrote: |
Leave this “do you expect them to stop” nonsense alone.
You should be ready to stop at all times while driving, keeping sufficient distance from the vehicle in front of you (that is another thing that many drivers fail to do so here) and choosing the right speed.
Brake lights come out in the vehicle in front of you so you push the brakes too. Simple as that.
Sure some will stop, but just as many will honk at you and desperately trying to pass you if you stop. Even if 9 out of ten cars stop, it’s still bad.
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Actually, its been my experience that virtually no one will honk at you if you don't blow through a pedestrian crosswalk while turning right on a green signal and they have the green light to cross. I've never had anyone honk at me. There have been occasional yahoos that try to blow through it while people are crossing, but they are actually quite rare. Some people will wait for the light to go all the way down before proceeding, others will wait until the crosswalk is clear. Trust me, its gotten A LOT better. In fact, its even a bit excessive with the whole waiting until the crossing signal has finished. That would never happen back home. People would just wait until all pedestrians were off, not until the signal finishes.
| Quote: |
| And what do you have to say about motorbikes of all sizes shooting across the pedestrian crossing from all angles. This bugs me the most. Somehow they think the red light doesn’t apply to motorbikes. And I’m not talking about an empty crosswalk. It’s with full of people. |
Depends on how crowded it is. If its crowded, that's clearly wrong. If there's 5 feet on either side, then who the heck cares as long as they are in the lane? Now those coming at some diagonal angle from a red light are clearly in the wrong.
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| Your definiton of danger and close calls would be a whole lot different if you had a child. |
I wasn't talking about people with kids. I was talking about single adults freaking out that a car almost hit them because it came within 2 feet at 5kph. At some point on some of these sidestreets if you want to pull forward so you can make a safe turn and see oncoming traffic, you do have to roll your car forward a bit by taking your foot off the brake because pedestrians just won't stop. People won't bat an eye at the car in the opposite lane going by you at 70 kph, with two yellow lines separating you. But roll past them at 5-10 kph and come within a couple of feet and they'll scream bloody murder. It's not based on ACTUAL danger, it's based on their feelings of vulnerability and personal space. Sometimes that guy going by you at 2 feet is a reckless moron who almost killed you. Other times its a perfectly safe maneuver. Some people have trouble distinguishing between the two. They just have "proximity alert" go off in their heads and just start freaking out. Now with kids, that's understandable. Drivers should change their behaviors based on able bodied adults crossing vs. kids/seniors. It all depends on context and the situation.
| Smithington wrote: |
| And for the umpteenth time, it's not just an urban traffic problem in Korea. It's a cultural problem. I have lived in plenty of rural areas. They drive just as badly and selfishly there. |
Smithington does have a bit of a point here. Driving conditions can vary in Korea and are not dependent on rural vs. Urban. Parts of Seoul aren't that bad. Busan can be insane. Certain rural areas are pretty alright and people polite to each other, others its clueless farmers rolling through in some tractor. Some midsized cities can be alright, others a nightmare. There is no rhyme or reason, just luck of the draw.
| Quote: |
| and (because of my Korean experience) am very conscious of the driving culture back home. I will sit outside a coffee shop at a major intersection and watch the traffic. |
For goodness sakes dude, last time I went back home I got smashed with all my old friends, hung out with family, saw a show, went to couple ball games, enjoyed the ol stomping grounds and nature, and stuffed my face. The last thing I'd do is sit outside a coffee shop at a major intersection and compare traffic behavior to somehow validate my views of Korea so as to reinforce my sense of superiority.
And people call me obsessed and crazy.  |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| and (because of my Korean experience) am very conscious of the driving culture back home. I will sit outside a coffee shop at a major intersection and watch the traffic. |
For goodness sakes dude, last time I went back home I got smashed with all my old friends, hung out with family, saw a show, went to couple ball games, enjoyed the ol stomping grounds and nature, and stuffed my face. The last thing I'd do is sit outside a coffee shop at a major intersection and compare traffic behavior to somehow validate my views of Korea so as to reinforce my sense of superiority.
And people call me obsessed and crazy. |
LOL. I do all of those things too. But I also occasionally sit outside my favorite coffee shop for my morning coffee, and it happens to be at a major intersection. Noone with a pulse could possibly fail to observe that, unlike in Korea, motorists are overwhelmingly law abiding and courteous. Once my coffee is finished I get up and go about my vacation. But one can enjoy their vacation while still observing how more polite and law-abiding people are back home. In fact, being around mannered, courteous people is what helps make my summer trip home so pleasant.
But nice spin there bozo. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
CC, I know you drive so I have to ask, when turning right on green, do you expect the car in front of you to stop for pedestrians at the crosswalk or to drive on through? I sure expect them to stop, because if I didn't I'd rear end them. When I first drove in Seoul in 2011, I didn't notice this at all. Now it seems the norm (though some knuckleheads do break the law), does that jive with your experience?
Look, I'm actually not that much in disagreement on the overall state of Korean driving conditions, but I am pointing out that the crossing thing has certainly improved and that sometimes, I think people overstate the degree of danger that they were in. Some of the stories seem a bit over the top or a bit too frequent to be completely plausible. |
I'm always prepared to stop. It's an intersection. You seem very focused on red lights and right hand turns. Don't get stuck on JUSt that.
As well, what's with this 5km you keep talking about? The cars I see rolling up on intersections don't slowly glide in... they DRIVE up to that line! And because of super tinting, and lack of laws, I can't see who is looking and who isn't. This is't a case of being scared of little Mrs Daisy in her 39 Olds.
I'm talking about ALL CROSSWALKS. As a pedestrian, I see cars blow through reds lights every day in this city. I also see them swerving and "going around" me as I try to cross in cross walks.
You wondered about Smithington and his traffic watching back home. Last Christmas I brought my in-laws to Calgary. And because of jet lag, my FIL had troubles sleeping. We were in an AirBNB apt overlooking downtown and a busy intersection, so he'd often be up at night just watching it all.
I recall one morning he was excited to talk to me when I woke up - "Eddie!! I realize that Canada is an advanced country!!"
hahaha... really? Um... ok, why?
"I was up from 2-5 this morning watching traffic, and even at that time, everyone stopped for the lights!! It was amazing. That would never happen in Korea."
My FIL is one of the biggest Korean patriots I know. Loves this country. Has lived all over the world, but always wants to be here. Yet even he could plainly see the difference. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
LOL. I do all of those things too. But I also occasionally sit outside my favorite coffee shop for my morning coffee, and it happens to be at a major intersection. Noone with a pulse could possibly fail to observe that, unlike in Korea, motorists are overwhelmingly law abiding and courteous. Once my coffee is finished I get up and go about my vacation. But one can enjoy their vacation while still observing how more polite and law-abiding people are back home. In fact, being around mannered, courteous people is what helps make my summer trip home so pleasant.
But nice spin there bozo. |
Where is this exactly? For goodness sakes, just go down the LIE or 8 Mile and Livernois in SE Michigan or any street. People doing 15-25 over. People not signalling. People cutting you off. And as far as polite and law abiding, for goodness sakes. I've never walked into a convenience store in Korea that had bulletproof glass or seen someone flash a piece or had a bunch of punk kids rough up random people. No brawls after a baseball game. No skinheads throwing up Nazi salutes at Gwar concerts and fighting people. Nothing like that kind of tomfoolery. I mean in Detroit you don't stop at any stop light after dark if you're outside of pure downtown. That's just asking to get jacked. Korea has its moronic danger from drifting ajosshis and shoving ajummas, but that is such cake compared to back home. Where's your busy intersection? The one next to the Dairy Queen and the Winn-Dixie? You're talking about how calm things are at home compared to here? Are you serious? For goodness sakes, last time I went home it was a blast, but it also involved so and so getting killed or ending up in jail or some other crazy crap. Or getting smashed on central campus and watching the drunken shenanigans that would occur.
And dude, even if I get a coffee back home, I don't spend it staring at the road and analyzing traffic patterns in an attempt to validate my perceptions about Korea. Like seriously, don't you have some place to go? A newspaper to read? A crossword to fill out? What were the other people at the coffee shop observing the traffic and remarking on how orderly everything was? Most of us teachers go home in either winter or summer. So its either ballz cold or muggy hot, and you mean to tell me that instead of sitting inside your coffee shop with the heat or the A/C, you're out on some table observing traffic and remarking on how different it is to Korea??? And who gets a coffee back home unless its 3AM at Denny's and you need to sober up? I mean, if you're going to claim that when you go back home you meet all your friends and get pissed, you better not be claiming that you stroll out for your daily coffee at 8AM downtoan. Now, if you're married with kids and you're staying with the folks, I understand. But, when I go back home, I don't have time for none of that. It's meet this person for lunch, drive or fly out here, or go fishing with dad at 5AM.
And where do you live back home that people don't complain and moan about traffic and other bad drivers? Everywhere you go, people complain about traffic and other drivers. Where is this magical place that people are like appreciative and complementary of other drivers? EVERYONE complains about idiots on the road.
You can make a case for Korea having some bad driving culture without making back home sound like Pleasantville. I mean, come on. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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SR, your "back home" is not everyone's. I think it's good to keep that in mind  |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| LOL. When I'm sitting outside a coffee shop having a coffee there are, at that exact moment, tens of thousands of other people doing the exact same thing right across the country. All of them have eyes, and all of them observe the world about them. The traffic is not the only thing I observe. I observe families, interesting dogs, attractive women, trees, the interaction of people, etc. I also observe the traffic. And since this is a thread about TRAFFIC I mentioned my observations about that. If we have a thread about Western women, or dog ownership, I'll mention the observations I made about those. But this hread isn't about that. Your attempts to create a "strawman opponent" haved failed again, as they have done time and again. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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I just spent 3 weeks in the UK and in Italy. The Italians have a rep for being bad drivers, but I didn't see anything too bad. A couple of drivers jumped the lights in quiet areas where there were no pedestrians, but that's about it. Nothing on the scale of Korea, where it happens constantly at any given intersection or set of lights.
In the UK, the almost ubiquitous presence of CCTV and speed-cams means hardly anybody is stupid enough to jump a light because it means a hundred quid fine. I'm surprised the Korean govt has not implemented such a scheme here. At the very least, they would rake in a ton of cash until Koreans learn how to drive properly. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| And who gets a coffee back home unless its 3AM at Denny's and you need to sober up? |
You live in a strange little world. |
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Sister Ray
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Location: Fukuoka
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
And who gets a coffee back home unless its 3AM at Denny's and you need to sober up? I mean, if you're going to claim that when you go back home you meet all your friends and get pissed, you better not be claiming that you stroll out for your daily coffee at 8AM downtoan. |
If you ain't drinkin', you ain't doin' your holiday right!
Jesus, SR how old are you? You sound like a socially retarded teenager with all this "you better be boozin'" talk. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The traffic is not the only thing I observe. I observe families, interesting dogs, attractive women, trees, the interaction of people, etc. |
So you got to the coffee shop and stare at people? Isn't that rude? Kind of creepy if you ask me. Some lone dude at a coffee shop, not working on a laptop or reading a newspaper, just "observing".
I'm just busting your balls a little Smithington, don't worry. I just think it's kind of funny, that on your vacation back home in either the chilly winter or hot summer, everyday you're sitting outside your favorite coffee shop and carefully noting the traffic that passes and that apparently the driving conditions are pristine. Look, I know what you mean, but I think in between staring at the women or reading your paper or whatever you might have missed that guy almost get into an accident. I mean, it's not like the cops back home are just sitting around going "(sigh) Another day of no tickets..." Clearly people back home do screw up and screw up regularly.
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| SR, your "back home" is not everyone's. I think it's good to keep that in mind |
This is true and I even applied it to my Korean driving observations noting that since I mostly drive in Sangam and Gayang, that those might not be the most representative examples and freely mentioned the terrible driving in Busan.
And it's also true that a BIG chunk of back home is filled with some serious problems that make those in Korea look like a cakewalk (not the traffic, talking about a "rude" culture). When one of your experiences in a corner store is walking in to a customer screaming at the guy behind the counter that "He's lucky he's got that bullet proof glass, otherwise I'd come over there and pistol whip you", line cutting ajumma becomes trivial in comparison. Spitting is nothing compared to the time my pastor was getting gas and the place happened to get robbed, the clerk was killed and the guy decided to fire a few at my pastor as he ran away. I'd take snot rockets and soup slurping and getting bumped into any day, and I certainly wouldn't utter phrases like "They need to learn basic human decency" in some condescending judgmental tone like some posters have (not you) when my back home has nonsense like that. There are parts of back home that are "advanced" and nice and pleasant. I could drop a Korean off in Rochester Hills or Bloomfield Hills and they'd think everything is advanced. Or I could drop them off in Wixom or Wayne and have a "meh" reaction. Or I could drop them off in Inkster or Adrian or Ypsilanti and they'd think the place was awful. The thing is in nice "Advanced" Rochester Hills, you also get pulled over simply for being black. So, its nice and wonderful for some people, and maybe not so advanced for others.
Anyways, do you think traffic varies by neighborhood or city in Korea? Do you feel there has been an improvement in the whole turning right and not bowling over pedestrians or cars running red lights? When I first started driving anyone who wanted to seemed to be up for running a red. Now it seems to be mostly taxis, delivery trucks, and scooters. |
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SHGator428
Joined: 05 Sep 2014
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| One dude is chasing his tail after getting annihilated in this thread, yet is still trying to be a part of it with "in my area" "do you find it similar?". LOL at this fool. |
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