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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:44 pm Post subject: Re: Again, Korea has serious safety issues. |
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Well, the passengers were all fishermen, so they're pretty used to not wearing a lifejacket, even in bad conditions. I mean, things have to get pretty bad to get fishermen to start wearing lifejackets. Look at any program about commercial fishing- boat is bobbing, waves crashing, rain whipping and all people have on are rain jackets as they haul in big nets of fish. If these weren't professional fishermen, there might be a point, but there probably is a macho element here at play. This wasn't a passenger ship, it was a fishing boat essentially operating as a fisherman's gypsy cab.
I also think its a bit hard to fault the emergency response. Apparently there was about 20 minutes between the time they first got the report that the boat MIGHT be having problems, called everyone on the passenger list, then got a response from the passenger didn't board, and dispatched boats. That's pretty solid. These are boats, not cars. And yes, the drift prediction model didn't get it right. That's just the nature of those things. Predicting sea currents isn't always an exact science. Conditions can change before stations and computers can update their model.
I know you desperately want to find things that Korea is doing wrong so you can point a finger and feel good about yourself, but this is a bit of a stretch. Yeah, the fisherman shouldn't have been macho and put on their lifejackets, but this is really a stretch. Fishing trawlers aren't exactly the most mint of boats out there. I mean we are talking about the most dangerous occupation in the world by far. There is an element of chance to all of this or in other words "The searchers all say they'd have made Jeju bay if they'd put 15 miles behind 'er".
What's Korea supposed to do? Have zero fatal accidents ever? Is Korea the only country that has fishing boats sink? |
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tophatcat
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Location: under the hat
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:17 am Post subject: Re: Again, Korea has serious safety issues. |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Well, the passengers were all fishermen, so they're pretty used to not wearing a lifejacket, even in bad conditions. I mean, things have to get pretty bad to get fishermen to start wearing lifejackets. Look at any program about commercial fishing- boat is bobbing, waves crashing, rain whipping and all people have on are rain jackets as they haul in big nets of fish. If these weren't professional fishermen, there might be a point, but there probably is a macho element here at play. This wasn't a passenger ship, it was a fishing boat essentially operating as a fisherman's gypsy cab.
I also think its a bit hard to fault the emergency response. Apparently there was about 20 minutes between the time they first got the report that the boat MIGHT be having problems, called everyone on the passenger list, then got a response from the passenger didn't board, and dispatched boats. That's pretty solid. These are boats, not cars. And yes, the drift prediction model didn't get it right. That's just the nature of those things. Predicting sea currents isn't always an exact science. Conditions can change before stations and computers can update their model.
I know you desperately want to find things that Korea is doing wrong so you can point a finger and feel good about yourself, but this is a bit of a stretch. Yeah, the fisherman shouldn't have been macho and put on their lifejackets, but this is really a stretch. Fishing trawlers aren't exactly the most mint of boats out there. I mean we are talking about the most dangerous occupation in the world by far. There is an element of chance to all of this or in other words "The searchers all say they'd have made Jeju bay if they'd put 15 miles behind 'er".
What's Korea supposed to do? Have zero fatal accidents ever? Is Korea the only country that has fishing boats sink? |
We are in Korea so we are discussing boats sinking in Korea. If we lived in the Arctic we might be discussing a guy being attacked by a polar bear in the Arctic Circle.
Dude, get a hold on yourself. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:12 am Post subject: Re: Again, Korea has serious safety issues. |
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| tophatcat wrote: |
We are in Korea so we are discussing boats sinking in Korea. If we lived in the Arctic we might be discussing a guy being attacked by a polar bear in the Arctic Circle.
Dude, get a hold on yourself. |
Well the overwhelming majority of my post dealt with the incident specifically in Korea. The OP is attempting to condemn Korea's safety culture and I think its a fair point to ask if Korea should never have accidents. Is this an accident because of safety culture or is it just one of those things thats as much the hand of fate as it is anything else. |
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tophatcat
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Location: under the hat
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Again, Korea has serious safety issues. |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Well, the passengers were all fishermen, so they're pretty used to not wearing a lifejacket, even in bad conditions. I mean, things have to get pretty bad to get fishermen to start wearing lifejackets. Look at any program about commercial fishing- boat is bobbing, waves crashing, rain whipping and all people have on are rain jackets as they haul in big nets of fish. If these weren't professional fishermen, there might be a point, but there probably is a macho element here at play. This wasn't a passenger ship, it was a fishing boat essentially operating as a fisherman's gypsy cab.
I also think its a bit hard to fault the emergency response. Apparently there was about 20 minutes between the time they first got the report that the boat MIGHT be having problems, called everyone on the passenger list, then got a response from the passenger didn't board, and dispatched boats. That's pretty solid. These are boats, not cars. And yes, the drift prediction model didn't get it right. That's just the nature of those things. Predicting sea currents isn't always an exact science. Conditions can change before stations and computers can update their model.
I know you desperately want to find things that Korea is doing wrong so you can point a finger and feel good about yourself, but this is a bit of a stretch. Yeah, the fisherman shouldn't have been macho and put on their lifejackets, but this is really a stretch. Fishing trawlers aren't exactly the most mint of boats out there. I mean we are talking about the most dangerous occupation in the world by far. There is an element of chance to all of this or in other words "The searchers all say they'd have made Jeju bay if they'd put 15 miles behind 'er".
What's Korea supposed to do? Have zero fatal accidents ever? Is Korea the only country that has fishing boats sink? |
So the fisherman are at no fault for not wearing life jackets?
The rescue efforts shouldn't be held to any accountability?
Somebody just wanting to point a finger so he can feel better?
Look at your avatar! |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The OP is attempting to condemn Korea's safety culture a |
it should either be condemned or receive a massive overhaul..
Buses and Trucks zip through red lights. Kids get hit and killed but that's ok because you have turned it into Foreigner has no right to complain. You really are worthless and hate Korea because Korea can't stand up to the criticism of people complain about its 'safety culture'
(by the way every single foreign pilot complains about the lack of a safety culture here) |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The OP is attempting to condemn Korea's safety culture a |
it should either be condemned or receive a massive overhaul..
Buses and Trucks zip through red lights. Kids get hit and killed but that's ok because you have turned it into Foreigner has no right to complain. You really are worthless and hate Korea because Korea can't stand up to the criticism of people complain about its 'safety culture'
(by the way every single foreign pilot complains about the lack of a safety culture here) |
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greatunknown
Joined: 04 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:48 am Post subject: |
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I see examples of the lax attitude towards safety daily in Korea.
As a Newfoundlander, a sailor and as a descendant of a long line of people who made their living from the sea. I agree with Steelrails in this case. This is a disaster but these things happen at sea.
People usually dont wear life jackets on commercial vessels.
Now... the workers using power tools to renovate my elementary schools bathrooms without wearing safety goggles and with no more than a pylon blocking the kids from running into them is more shocking to me. I saw a guy using a circular saw (i think.. Im not too handy) to cut a metal pipe today just feet from kids waiting to get into their class. Sparks flying everywhere! A tiny shard of molten metal could take his or a kids eye at any moment. |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| greatunknown wrote: |
I see examples of the lax attitude towards safety daily in Korea.
As a Newfoundlander, a sailor and as a descendant of a long line of people who made their living from the sea. I agree with Steelrails in this case. This is a disaster but these things happen at sea.
People usually dont wear life jackets on commercial vessels.
Now... the workers using power tools to renovate my elementary schools bathrooms without wearing safety goggles and with no more than a pylon blocking the kids from running into them is more shocking to me. I saw a guy using a circular saw (i think.. Im not too handy) to cut a metal pipe today just feet from kids waiting to get into their class. Sparks flying everywhere! A tiny shard of molten metal could take his or a kids eye at any moment. |
I agree on the part of workers on commercial vessels.
Yes. I've seen the saws and things running within arms length of kids and pedestrians. It frightens me seeing it.
I think what happened after the boat turned over is what has people questioning if anything is better than a year ago.
sr's post reeked of a limp ego. We all knew that was coming. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Again, Korea has serious safety issues. |
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| tophatcat wrote: |
So the fisherman are at no fault for not wearing life jackets?
The rescue efforts shouldn't be held to any accountability?
Somebody just wanting to point a finger so he can feel better?
Look at your avatar! |
Technically the fishermen should have been wearing life jackets. But you would be hard pressed to find any 20 fisherman anywhere in the world who would wear lifejackets unless things were really dire and by then it might be too late and the lifejackets might not matter. Not to mention, it seems that they would have died of hypothermia regardless. Its kind of like motorcyclists and helmets. You'll find a fair number of bikers who do wear helmets, but a lot still choose to not wear helmets.
Finding things lost at sea isn't exactly the easiest task. Anytime you hear of near instant rescues at sea, they are either near the coast or there is another vessel within very close proximity. Hence why most lost at sea stores usually have lines like "The search is entering its second day and still no sign of..." Drift prediction is not an exact science. It took them 20 minutes between reports of a loss of contact from a 3rd vessel to them deploying 3 search vessels. Now, you may think that that deployment should happen instantly, but there's a reason they call people first. These boats aren't exactly always in tip top shape. Engines fail and power goes out or the radio might take a crap. Also, 20 minutes isn't going to make that much of a difference at sea. There is a big difference in scale. Thinking the authorities should have instantly started a search operation instead of spending 20 minutes calling is like thinking you should call the police because your gf isn't home exactly on time and you aren't going to waste 20 minutes calling around to see where she is.
I'm not saying safety culture in Korea is never to blame, just that you might want to pause and think about things and ask around before hopping on the Korean danger bandwagon. I've never been on a commercial fishing vessel, but just watching stuff on the fishing channel or some deadliest catch or looking at photos of commercial fishing vessels, people are almost never wearing their life jackets, even if conditions are not the best.
Expecting seasoned commercial fishermen hitching a ride to have on lifejackets all the time is like expecting a bunch of commercial airline passengers who happen to be pilots to all be wearing parachutes.
Sorry, Smithington. Instead or working yourself into a lather, pause and carefully consider if your claims are valid. |
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tophatcat
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Location: under the hat
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:58 am Post subject: Re: Again, Korea has serious safety issues. |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| tophatcat wrote: |
So the fisherman are at no fault for not wearing life jackets?
The rescue efforts shouldn't be held to any accountability?
Somebody just wanting to point a finger so he can feel better?
Look at your avatar! |
Technically the fishermen should have been wearing life jackets. But you would be hard pressed to find any 20 fisherman anywhere in the world who would wear lifejackets unless things were really dire and by then it might be too late and the lifejackets might not matter. Not to mention, it seems that they would have died of hypothermia regardless. Its kind of like motorcyclists and helmets. You'll find a fair number of bikers who do wear helmets, but a lot still choose to not wear helmets.
Finding things lost at sea isn't exactly the easiest task. Anytime you hear of near instant rescues at sea, they are either near the coast or there is another vessel within very close proximity. Hence why most lost at sea stores usually have lines like "The search is entering its second day and still no sign of..." Drift prediction is not an exact science. It took them 20 minutes between reports of a loss of contact from a 3rd vessel to them deploying 3 search vessels. Now, you may think that that deployment should happen instantly, but there's a reason they call people first. These boats aren't exactly always in tip top shape. Engines fail and power goes out or the radio might take a crap. Also, 20 minutes isn't going to make that much of a difference at sea. There is a big difference in scale. Thinking the authorities should have instantly started a search operation instead of spending 20 minutes calling is like thinking you should call the police because your gf isn't home exactly on time and you aren't going to waste 20 minutes calling around to see where she is.
I'm not saying safety culture in Korea is never to blame, just that you might want to pause and think about things and ask around before hopping on the Korean danger bandwagon. I've never been on a commercial fishing vessel, but just watching stuff on the fishing channel or some deadliest catch or looking at photos of commercial fishing vessels, people are almost never wearing their life jackets, even if conditions are not the best.
Expecting seasoned commercial fishermen hitching a ride to have on lifejackets all the time is like expecting a bunch of commercial airline passengers who happen to be pilots to all be wearing parachutes.
Sorry, Smithington. Instead or working yourself into a lather, pause and carefully consider if your claims are valid. |
Are you seriously suggesting that the Korean News articles carry no validity……………………………….../////// |
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motiontodismiss
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Again, Korea has serious safety issues. |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Expecting seasoned commercial fishermen hitching a ride to have on lifejackets all the time is like expecting a bunch of commercial airline passengers who happen to be pilots to all be wearing parachutes.
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Sure but I'd sure as hell expect them to have their seatbelts fastened at all times while seated.
Korea's safety culture sucks and we all know it. Take a look at the aftermath of US Airways 1549 vs. the Sewol or this incident. I've seen bikes and other crap stashed in emergency stairways in highrise buildings. This is so basic it should go without saying.
Things haven't improved since the Sewol. I'd expect things like this to happen in third world countries, not one that claims to be a G20 developed economy. The first responders' excuse for having waited 20 minutes is equivalent to"Oh, we didn't dispatch emergency services because that plane that just overran the runway and blew up didn't issue a Mayday call". Use your judgment people. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Again, Korea has serious safety issues. |
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| tophatcat wrote: |
Are you seriously suggesting that the Korean News articles carry no validity……………………………….../////// |
I'm saying they do what a lot of news agencies do- Hype up a problem where one might not exist. You say stuff that sounds bad to the uninformed reader/listener/viewer, however those in the know or those that bother to stop and contemplate such things will realize that its not as bad as they say. You can find this in reporting on crime, politics, world affairs, even sports and entertainment.
I'll give some examples- headlines over cops firing a bunch of times and missing. People think cops should be able to shoot the gun out of someone's hand at 50 paces. Of course anyone who has ever shot a handgun knows that this is rather difficult on a stationary target that isn't shooting back at you. So yeah, if the target is moving and at a moderate-to-long range and is firing back at you, suddenly cops firing 50 shots and hitting the guy only once starts to make sense. Never mind the fact that cops aren't supposed to be crack shots, they have to do a bunch of different jobs, ranging from knowing the law to being skilled drivers to understanding crime scene procedure. When you think about it, its far more important for cops to receive training on community relations and crime scene procedure than being a crack shot. Of course the media will freak out.
This also happens in international news. Occasionally CNN will put up some big headline about Russian or Chinese aircraft coming DANGEROUSLY close and us intercepting them as though this is something outrageous. Actually this is pretty standard and is what militaries normally do. Or think of the North Korea news hype machine. Kim Jong Eun THREATENS TO DESTROY SEOUL. Casual people and your parents back home freak out. People in the know understand that this is normal.
Anyways, tophatcat, you have a brain. Is it really that hard to look at the timetable and realize that 20 minutes spent verifying the boat was actually in distress and not just suffering a radio breakdown is not that bad? Does it require much mental skill to realize that drift predictions aren't always accurate and to say recall previous searches for missing vessels that have gone into the days or even weeks period? Is it that hard to comprehend that hardy professional commercial fishermen, who typically work in conditions such as those without lifejackets, wouldn't be riding around with lifejackets, huddling in fear? Is it that hard to look at video or pictures of commercial fisherman and notice that when they're working, even in bad conditions, often they aren't wearing lifejackets because they'd just get in the way? Does it require that much effort to look at the global commercial fishing industry and realize it is pretty dangerous and boats are lost, even from countries like the U.S., the U.K., Norway, and Iceland? Or do you just go "People in Korea died due to accident, must be another outrageous example of how Korea has gotten everything wrong".
Look, even two people who agree that Korea has issues with its safety culture (which it does in part), have stated that the whole lifejacket thing is pretty ridiculous and that this is pretty much par for the course when it comes to commercial fishing. Thinking people on boats should always be wearing lifejackets is like thinking people in airplanes should always be wearing parachutes. Anyone who knows anything about flying knows that that is just not what happens. |
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sligo
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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I saw a kid in a car seat for the first time the other day! Safety is changing here, but at a snail's pace. It has nothing to do with lessons learnt from the Sewol, more the hero worship of the celebrity. Suddenly we are seeing "parent and baby" programmes on TV everyday, and those children do everything in the safest possible manner; bicycle helmets, car seatts, life jackets etc. It seems it is envy (of the rich) rather than fear (of another Sewol) that is driving change (albeit very, very slowly).
On a related point, i still see people driving whilst carrying babies or dogs. Everyday i see people talking on their phones whilst driving. Yesterday i say a woman talking on the phone and putting on make up all whilst her car was in transit. It seems that the egocentric attitude of Korea means that they are incapable of looking beyond the immediacy of their actions. Yes, you think you are a good driver so don't need to put on a seatbelt, or put your child in a car seat, but what about the drunk idiot who is driving towards you? Most accidents include 2 people, and you cannot control the other guy. I used to argue with taxi drivers when they "hid the seatbelts". The drivers used to argue that they were good drivers, and took it as an insult when i wanted a seatbelt. They could never understand how an accident could happpen when they considerred themselves to be great drivers. These great drivers who only look lleft when turning right and almost rtun over pedestrians. These great drivers who start to turn BEFORE indicating and wiithout checking mirrors. These great drivers who never learnt to drive, just learnt to pass the test; i know too well, i was given a licence here after driveing round 4 brand new road courses twice each, and one a third toime as a driving test.
You want change here? then hit Koreans where they care, in the wallet. A culture that worships money will mourn its loss. Extra vigilence for a year will mean a massive cash influx from fines, and will keep everyone on their toes so thay would rather be safe, than lose money. Until Koreans realise the effects of their actions (and inactions) on others, in the words of Elvis Costello: "Accidents will happpen". |
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tophatcat
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Location: under the hat
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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The folly of Steelrail's argument has been established and proven.
We can live happily ever after. |
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