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Should The U.S. Scale Back Relations With Israel?
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plain Meaning wrote:
Okay, TUM. There's definitely a case to be made that Hamas's attacks were unprovoked (if you do not consider the daily oppressions of occupation itself provocation) or more solidly, disproportionate to the provocation. But do you consider Israel's response itself proportionate? If you think that's questionable, that's the part of the resolution I am questioning, because it affirms Israel's 'defense' against 'unprovoked attacks' by Hamas. The operations Israel conducted went well beyond defense and well into collective punishment.

I hope I have made it clear that I do not sympathize or indorse Hamas. My sympathy lies with innocents in Palestine and Israel.



I was simply pointing out that the article has a bit of a problem with credibility when one of its own sources contradicts a so-called "fact" that the article states.

Also I'm not sure where you get this part.
Quote:
"There's definitely a case to be made that Hamas's attacks were unprovoked (if you do not consider the daily oppressions of occupation itself provocation) or more solidly, disproportionate to the provocation."


Gaza (the part of Palestine that Hamas controls) is NOT occupied by Israeli troops. Yes it was invaded in July 2014 but Israeli ground troops withdrew on August 5th. Not too much "daily oppressions of occupation" going on there I'm afraid.

As for Israel's response it is perhaps going too far...but if not justified it is at least understandable. When you have mortars and rockets being fired on you (especially during a ceasefire)...it becomes more than just a nuisance. Israel forces launched that invasion with the stated goal (among others) of stopping rocket fire (at least for a while) and that by its very nature is a huge undertaking. I wonder though if WE were Israeli citizens living in the territory that was prone to be hit often by rocket fire...would WE then feel Israel's response to be overkill?

I also think we can at least agree on this though. That it is a sad on-going situation and the two state concept seems as far off as it ever did.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only real solution I can see is to reverse the Surpreme Court, Citizens United decision. Take the money out of politics and you take away AIPAC and supporters power. Public funded elections. Not a popular concept in America but works in other countries.

My view is that NO country, even friend and close allies should ever be given automatic support. That is my main contention with the power Israel has over our politicians. The GOP once had their members publicly pledge to support Israel. Chuck Hagel didn't, rightfully so, at the time because he said NO country should be pledged support other than America. Everyone else should be a case by case basis. He paid for it when he was up for nomination a while back. That was payback.

I personally consider that pledge to be treasonous. You ONLY pledge to your own country. Israel. Canada. UK, Israel, it doesn't matter. Friends can be wrong at times. No ad hoc support should be given to any country.

Anyway, removing money from politics is the biggest thing the country can do. Remove as many consequences to being fair minded when it comes to Israel is what is needed. By fair minded, I mean, it may be fair to say 'stop building settlements here or there as its occupied by Palestinians.' or 'Stop taking water rights from this Palestinian village'. Right now, any act, said or action and there are consequences. Another tool to stop the influence of any of these groups along with removing the money is getting rid of the electoral college and going by popular vote. The current set up gives Florida more power than about 49 other states, Ohio being the exception. So, the candidates need to keep Florida happy and that means being anti Cuba and pro Israel. The former has been taken away (actually a good move by Obama) but the latter is still important. most of the states are already decided. California and NY will always go blue and Texas and Alabama will always go red. The swing states have more power than anyone else. Take away that power as well as the money out of the elections and you dilute the power immensely.
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Swartz



Joined: 19 Dec 2014

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can respect your willingness to explore this issue, Sirius. In the long run, most other matters fall by the wayside due to the power of this fifth column. But it’s important to understand that the left/right, red team/blue team puppet show is a farce. Duel-citizen, Israeli firsters were responsible for about half of the contributions to both parties in the last election. The republicans are controlled opposition, which is why they rarely speak out against policies that will eventually destroy their own party; namely, the importation third worlders that consistently elect communist leaders in their home countries. We now live in a western world where governments have declared war on their own citizens through demographics. The Central Party’s goal is to drown that Middle American sea of red with a swarm of brown, and they are succeeding.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without immigration the us would be bankrupt. I dont want the us to be even more bankrupt than the us already is. Japan does not have immigration how is that worming out for them?
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Swartz



Joined: 19 Dec 2014

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Propaganda lesson: This is how you mongrelize and destroy the genetic and cultural identity and cohesion of a group. You repeat over and over and over again that they NEED outsiders to infiltrate their society in large numbers; then braindead cattle like the fellow above will repeat it to others as if it is in any way actually true.

Here’s the reality: The US is beyond bankrupt, it has more debt than it will ever be able to repay. Low IQ immigrants are a net burden financially and otherwise on that system and an economy that has exported low-skilled labor at a record pace while facing increased automation. No nation of people “needs” immigration; but corrupt capitalists certainly want cheaper labor.

Japan will be fine, back to Israel.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't aware that Japan is in far better shape for the long term than the US.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Japan does not have immigration how is that worming out for them?


It means it will still be recognizably Japanese in half a century, albeit with less people. The US and much of Europe will look like the Mos Eisley cantina.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:
.

My view is that NO country, even friend and close allies should ever be given automatic support.

.


What about if they are being attacked and are a member of NATO (which the US belongs to)?

Because "ever" (in the context that you are using it) covers a lot of ground...including the above scenario.
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Swartz



Joined: 19 Dec 2014

PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu certainly knows how to return a favor. To express his gratitude for the United States having engaged in laborious 17 month multilateral negotiations that succeeded in eliminating Iran’s ability to construct a nuclear weapon, Netanyahu is now demanding more money from Washington because the agreement has, in his esteemed opinion, made Israel more vulnerable. As Israel is already the largest recipient of United States military assistance at $3.1 billion a year the jump to $5 billion might seem relatively inconsequential, but for Netanyahu it will mean that 25% of his entire defense budget will now come from the United States, enabling Israel to free up funds to provide free university education and medical treatment for its citizens, something that the American taxpayers who come up with the money do not enjoy. And our government has repeatedly expressed its disapproval of the Israeli settlements for the building of which there is no shortage of funds in the Israeli budget, some of which surely comes from us. We are helping them to do what we ask them not to do. Insanity?

And it seems that beyond that there is no limit to Israel’s own particular form of expressing “thank you America.” Even as Israel prepares to accept the additional money it seems disinclined to restrain either its actions or its rhetoric towards anyone who questions its behavior, including the President of the United States. One would think the prospect of receiving an extra $20 billion dollars would produce at least a little moderation but the Israeli government appears to be intent on sending a message to the Barack Obama White House telling the world who is really in charge.

Last Tuesday, with Netanyahu off attending a meeting of global movers and shakers in Davos Switzerland, the Israeli government announced that it would be seizing from Arab owners 380 acres of arable land near Jericho in the Jordan River valley. The land has been up until now considered an Israeli Army security zone so even though it was Palestinian property the owners were not allowed to use it. Settlers are reportedly already encroaching on the land and it will no doubt soon transition into a new settlement bloc with the blessing of the military and government. Israel has also announced the destruction of West Bank buildings used by Bedouin tribesmen that were financed by the European Union (E.U.), presumably so it can declare the land vacant, permitting its annexation to construct permanent homes for Israeli Jews.

The seizure and demolitions produced predictable protests from the Europeans, the Arab League, the Palestinians themselves and also from Washington. But as in the case of the all too fungible money flowing incessantly from Washington, Israel’s having already stolen tens of thousands of acres of Arab land on the West Bank while planting something like 600,000 illegal settlers, many in heavily guarded compounds, a few hundred more acres matters little. But that would be to ignore the essentially political reality that the Netanyahu government always responds to critics by taking the offensive, in this case carrying out actions that are gross violations of international law a few days before a U.S. delegation is due to arrive in Tel Aviv to discuss Israel’s new aid package. It demonstrates Israel’s contempt for the interests and sensitivities of the United States.

Indeed, Netanyahu does not behave as he does because he is compelled to do so or has some good reason for responding to critics disparagingly. He does so because standing up to the world community enhances his political stature among his extreme right wing supporters in Israel, who rejoice in telling critics that they do not care one bit about the increasing international sentiment condemning their behavior. And Netanyahu knows he can in reality behave with impunity because he de facto owns the U.S. Congress and the mainstream media and has said as much, noting that for him “I know what America is. America is a thing you can move very easily, move it in the right direction. They won’t get in the way.”

Several recent incidents demonstrate the Netanyahu disdain for the opinion of the United States as well of the rest of the world. U.S. Ambassador to Israel Dan Shapiro was on the receiving end of Bibi’s wrath when he commented that “continued settlement growth raises honest questions about Israel’s long term intentions,” adding that the Israeli authorities do not investigate attacks on Palestinians “vigorously,” that there was increasing vigilantism by settlers, and that there are two standards to the rule of law “one for Israelis and another for Palestinians.” Shapiro was referring to civil law prevailing in Israel while the army operates on the West Bank under martial law, which has far fewer protections for the accused and where shoot to kill policies against Arab demonstrators have become common. The criticism, as mild as it was, drew an angry response from Netanyahu, who called statement “unacceptable and untrue.” A political ally of Netanyahu called the American Ambassador a “little Jewboy.”

Israel, which fancies itself a democracy, does indeed have different standards of justice. As part of a new program of action against “terrorists,” Israel last week began arrests of anyone who posts content on Facebook that the government considers to be anti-Israeli. As it is not necessary to actually do anything to fall afoul of the new regulations, the offense is in the nature of a thought crime. Inevitably, Arabs have been arrested but no Jews. It is also interesting to consider whether Israel believes its extraterritoriality on what it considers terrorism to extend to Americans and Europeans who criticize Israeli actions. Many of those who are reading these words might well find themselves arrested if they should ever have to enter Israel for any reason.

Israel and its friends have also responded sharply to a European Union demand first put in place last November that products derived from the Israeli settlements be labeled as such, enabling consumers to avoid them if they choose to do so. Last week, the E.U. also indicated that any business or government to government dealings with Israel must not involve the settlements on the West Bank and in East Jerusalem. Israel’s point of view is that the West Bank settlements are de facto part of Israel. The Swedish foreign minister Margot Wallstrom has also been subjected to Israel’s wrath after she suggested that it might be worthwhile to investigate whether Israeli police and military have been executing Palestinian prisoners extra-judicially. More than 141 Palestinians have died in the recent unrest versus 24 Israelis. There have been numerous reports that some of the Arab victims have been shot and killed after they were either incapacitated or arrested while a leading Rabbi has called for all Palestinians to be executed. The Netanyahu government has attacked Wallstrom, stating that her comments were “a mix of blindness and political stupidity.” She has been officially banned from travel to Israel.

Israel’s pit bulls in the think tanks and media have inevitably joined in the discussion. Jennifer Rubin at the Washington Post explains “Why it’s correct to label the Obama administration anti-Israel,” citing, among others, the deranged Danielle Pletka of the American Enterprise Institute, who describes identifying settlement produced goods as “blatant anti-Semitism” coupled with a warning that that “it should be clear to Jews everywhere that the 1930s are returning.” Rubin also cites the ever reliable Elliott Abrams, who sees a broad movement to discredit Israel, commenting that the U.S. failure to condemn the E.U. action means that Obama is “joining the jackals.”

Rubin and her friends seek to twist the argument by maintaining that other areas “in dispute” do not have their products labeled, but they ignore the fact that there is no other situation anywhere in the world quite like Israel’s continued military occupation coupled with the introduction of settlers, destruction of the local economy and exploitation of aquifers and other natural resources. And the West Bank is hardly disputed, except by the Israel first last and always crowd. It is clearly Palestinian land.

Giving Israel more money will not make Netanyahu behave but there is no possibility that the largesse will somehow be terminated because America’s timorous leadership is afraid to confront the obvious. The whole world understands that Israel is the ultimate rogue nation, propped up by the only remaining superpower, which appears to be a helpless giant whenever it is confronted by the Israeli Prime Minister’s demands. Professor Stephen Walt of Harvard has recently suggested that the most influential papers within the U.S. mainstream media might want to consider featuring on their opinion pages more foreign power realists and a lot fewer neocons, in part because the former have been consistently right while the latter have nearly always been wrong. How true. It would be a breath of fresh air to open a newspaper and not be confronted by Elliott Abrams, Jennifer Rubin, Robert Kaplan, Charles Krauthammer and the Kagans spewing their nonsense about the Middle East.

A realist would instead ask “What are America’s interests in the Middle East?” and “Why do we have a widely promoted ‘special relationship’ with Israel?” The answers would demonstrate that Washington and Tel Aviv’s interests do not coincide and never have. And that the special relationship is a self-serving fiction invented by Israel’s friends. Understanding that and acting upon it would be a real change that many of us could quite comfortably live with.


http://www.unz.com/article/seeking-bibis-favor/

How lucky we are to have such a wonderful ally...

The Greater Israel Plan (Oded Yinon) proceeds as directed: Destabilize the Middle East; ship Israel's enemies (fighting aged Arab men) to Europe; denounce Whites who oppose this new diversity as racist and print articles in ZOG media telling them they have no choice but to accept it; put on second face and whine about the poor Jews who are now being forced to flee and use them excuse to steal more land and build more settlements.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swartz wrote:
Propaganda lesson: This is how you mongrelize and destroy the genetic and cultural identity and cohesion of a group. You repeat over and over and over again that they NEED outsiders to infiltrate their society in large numbers; then braindead cattle like the fellow above will repeat it to others as if it is in any way actually true.

Here’s the reality: The US is beyond bankrupt, it has more debt than it will ever be able to repay. Low IQ immigrants are a net burden financially and otherwise on that system and an economy that has exported low-skilled labor at a record pace while facing increased automation. No nation of people “needs” immigration; but corrupt capitalists certainly want cheaper labor.

Japan will be fine, back to Israel.


ignorant
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trueblue



Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GENO123 wrote:
Swartz wrote:
Propaganda lesson: This is how you mongrelize and destroy the genetic and cultural identity and cohesion of a group. You repeat over and over and over again that they NEED outsiders to infiltrate their society in large numbers; then braindead cattle like the fellow above will repeat it to others as if it is in any way actually true.

Here’s the reality: The US is beyond bankrupt, it has more debt than it will ever be able to repay. Low IQ immigrants are a net burden financially and otherwise on that system and an economy that has exported low-skilled labor at a record pace while facing increased automation. No nation of people “needs” immigration; but corrupt capitalists certainly want cheaper labor.

Japan will be fine, back to Israel.


ignorant


How?
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trueblue wrote:
GENO123 wrote:
Swartz wrote:
Propaganda lesson: This is how you mongrelize and destroy the genetic and cultural identity and cohesion of a group. You repeat over and over and over again that they NEED outsiders to infiltrate their society in large numbers; then braindead cattle like the fellow above will repeat it to others as if it is in any way actually true.

Here’s the reality: The US is beyond bankrupt, it has more debt than it will ever be able to repay. Low IQ immigrants are a net burden financially and otherwise on that system and an economy that has exported low-skilled labor at a record pace while facing increased automation. No nation of people “needs” immigration; but corrupt capitalists certainly want cheaper labor.

Japan will be fine, back to Israel.


ignorant


How?


According to swarts the US is bankrupt but Japan will be fine.


What is wrong with that statement ?
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Swartz



Joined: 19 Dec 2014

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GENO123 wrote:
Swartz wrote:
Propaganda lesson: This is how you mongrelize and destroy the genetic and cultural identity and cohesion of a group. You repeat over and over and over again that they NEED outsiders to infiltrate their society in large numbers; then braindead cattle like the fellow above will repeat it to others as if it is in any way actually true.

Here’s the reality: The US is beyond bankrupt, it has more debt than it will ever be able to repay. Low IQ immigrants are a net burden financially and otherwise on that system and an economy that has exported low-skilled labor at a record pace while facing increased automation. No nation of people “needs” immigration; but corrupt capitalists certainly want cheaper labor.

Japan will be fine, back to Israel.


ignorant


Far from it. Stating that Japan must import outsiders so it can maintain a 120+ mil population is ignorant. Contraction is fine, and never-ending growth is unreasonable.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swartz wrote:
GENO123 wrote:
Swartz wrote:
Propaganda lesson: This is how you mongrelize and destroy the genetic and cultural identity and cohesion of a group. You repeat over and over and over again that they NEED outsiders to infiltrate their society in large numbers; then braindead cattle like the fellow above will repeat it to others as if it is in any way actually true.

Here’s the reality: The US is beyond bankrupt, it has more debt than it will ever be able to repay. Low IQ immigrants are a net burden financially and otherwise on that system and an economy that has exported low-skilled labor at a record pace while facing increased automation. No nation of people “needs” immigration; but corrupt capitalists certainly want cheaper labor.

Japan will be fine, back to Israel.


ignorant


Far from it. Stating that Japan must import outsiders so it can maintain a 120+ mil population is ignorant. Contraction is fine, and never-ending growth is unreasonable.


Economic contraction is fine?

you are one dumb FK

Japan's debt .


http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/japan


http://www.tradingeconomics.com/japan/government-debt-to-gdp

So who has the best economic future going forward?

a) Europe
b) Japan
c) The US
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Swartz



Joined: 19 Dec 2014

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GENO123 wrote:
Swartz wrote:
GENO123 wrote:
Swartz wrote:
Propaganda lesson: This is how you mongrelize and destroy the genetic and cultural identity and cohesion of a group. You repeat over and over and over again that they NEED outsiders to infiltrate their society in large numbers; then braindead cattle like the fellow above will repeat it to others as if it is in any way actually true.

Here’s the reality: The US is beyond bankrupt, it has more debt than it will ever be able to repay. Low IQ immigrants are a net burden financially and otherwise on that system and an economy that has exported low-skilled labor at a record pace while facing increased automation. No nation of people “needs” immigration; but corrupt capitalists certainly want cheaper labor.

Japan will be fine, back to Israel.


ignorant


Far from it. Stating that Japan must import outsiders so it can maintain a 120+ mil population is ignorant. Contraction is fine, and never-ending growth is unreasonable.


Economic contraction is fine?

you are one dumb FK

Japan's debt .


http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/japan


http://www.tradingeconomics.com/japan/government-debt-to-gdp


Altering your demographic purity for the sake of paying off debt to international financiers is the epitome of stupidity. Thankfully the Japanese aren't stupid.
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