|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
|
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:34 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Read your own source again. He very specifically condemned the neo-Nazis, KKK, and other hate groups within the the "alt-right" side, separating them from other "very fine" protesters*. Aside from his usual outbursts about fake news, this was actually a very level-headed and Presidential response from Trump, in stark contrast to what we heard from Obama following the Martin and Gates incidents. The rise of leftist violence (and its involvement, potentially even instigation, in Charlottesville) needs to be acknowledged and condemned, arguably even moreso than Spencer and his kind, given that unlike Antifa and BLM, no one of any significance gives a pass to neo-Nazi bigotry. Yes, people defend, as Trump did in his press conference, the idea that Confederate monuments and symbols can carry a meaning other than hatred and bigotry, largely because "heritage, not hate" is a genuine and popular concept in the South. But this is not, as the stubbornly divisive insist, in anyway comparable to white supremacist ideology, and if you actually cared about peace, unity, and progress, you would be honest and acknowledge it.
*While there is no shortage of the tolerant among those who hold favorable opinions of Lee and Stonewall, I haven't seen any evidence of their attendance in Charlottesville. The manner in which Trump gave a nod to their point of view was very clumsily handled. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
Two takeaways:
1) What does the ACLU think about this matter?
| Quote: |
“We asked the city to adhere to the U.S. Constitution and ensure people’s safety at the protest. It failed to do so. In our system, the city makes the rules and the courts enforce them. Our role is to ensure that the system works the same for everyone.
“In the weeks after the July 8 protests, the city (working with the governor and others) had ample opportunity to put together a case and present it in court on its own motion justifying the revocation of the permit and the imposition of a prior restraint on speech. If the judge in our case had been presented with any credible evidence or testimony by the city of an imminent threat of harm (other than a list of internet entries) or evidence that the change in permit would, in fact, result in no demonstration in downtown Charlottesville, I have confidence that he would have denied the injunction, and the city would have been faced with enforcing the change of venue and protecting demonstrators and counter-demonstrators in two locations.
“Instead, the city’s pleadings said that its decision to revoke the permit was based primarily on the unmanageable numbers of people who would show up. An affidavit from the police chief said that they expected twice as many counter-protesters (2,000) as protesters (1,000). Yet, the city did not revoke the permits for the counter-protesters, too. In light of those facts, the judge couldn’t get beyond the fact that the city hadn’t revoked all permits for demonstrations downtown on Saturday.
“It is the responsibility of law enforcement to ensure safety of both protesters and counter-protesters. The policing on Saturday was not effective in preventing violence. I was there and brought concerns directly to the secretary of public safety and the head of the Virginia State Police about the way that the barricades in the park limiting access by the arriving demonstrators and the lack of any physical separation of the protesters and counter-protesters on the street were contributing to the potential of violence. They did not respond. In fact, law enforcement was standing passively by, seeming to be waiting for violence to take place, so that they would have grounds to declare an emergency, declare an ‘unlawful assembly’ and clear the area.
“Rather than seeking to scapegoat the ACLU of Virginia and the Rutherford Institute for the devastating events on Saturday, it is my firm hope and desire that the governor and other state and local officials will learn from this past weekend how constitutionally to prevent events like the horror we saw in Charlottesville from ever happening again.” |
Given the ACLU is ideologically hostile to the protesters (even as it defends their civil rights under its mission), I for one am inclined to take their assessment of how the Municipality of Charlottesville comported itself in this matter seriously. Given the psychology of mob dynamics, it's entirely possible that whichever city official was responsible for managing the police presence at the event may be the single most culpable party vis a vis the general violence (though obviously not the particular act of crashing a car into a crowd of people).
2) What does the Governor of Virginia, who once pardoned an illegal immigrant in hopes of decreasing the likelihood of her deportation, think about the Americans who exercised their First Amendment rights in his state in Charlottesville?
There's a nice campaign slogan for his imagined 2020 run at the Presidency. "Terry McAuliffe 2020: Americans Whose Views I Find Repugnant Aren't Americans and Should Leave the Country." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox, where did you find that ACLU quote? That is stunning. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
Apparently, Antifa may have saved lives.
https://www.democracynow.org/2017/8/14/cornel_west_rev_toni_blackmon_clergy
| Cornell West wrote: |
| But what happened was, they held us hostage in the church. We could not leave after the service, because the torch march threatening the people who were there. And so, in that sense, I said, "Hmmm, boy, these neofascists, they’re out of control. Where are the police?" And who would think that our dear sister Heather, my dear comrade, who also was with IWW—you know, that’s very important. She was an organizer. She stood with us on Saturday. She paid the ultimate price. And many of us may have to pay that ultimate price. |
| Quote: |
CORNEL WEST: ... You had a number of the courageous students, of all colors, at the University of Virginia who were protesting against the neofascists themselves. The neofascists had their own ammunition. And this is very important to keep in mind, because the police, for the most part, pulled back. The next day, for example, those 20 of us who were standing, many of them clergy, we would have been crushed like cockroaches if it were not for the anarchists and the antifascists who approached, over 300, 350 antifascists. We just had 20. And we’re singing "This Little light of Mine," you know what I mean? So that the—
AMY GOODMAN: "Antifa" meaning antifascist.
CORNEL WEST: The antifascists, and then, crucial, the anarchists, because they saved our lives, actually. We would have been completely crushed, and I’ll never forget that. Meaning what? Meaning that you had the police holding back, on the one hand, so we couldn’t even get arrested. We were there to get arrested. We couldn’t get arrested, because the police had pulled back, and just allowing fellow citizens to go at each other, you see, and with all of the consequences that would follow therefrom. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
See for yourself the "very nice people" among the white nationalists, alt-rightists and neo-Nazis ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54sP0Nlngg
Tactics aside, the underlying motivation of this crucial part of Trump's political base is really morally base (and I don't think I'm off-base here...) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| stilicho25 wrote: |
| Fox, where did you find that ACLU quote? That is stunning. |
Sorry, I forgot to add the link in the original post. It is on the page of the Virginia Chapter of the ACLU:
https://acluva.org/20108/aclu-of-virginia-response-to-governors-allegations-that-aclu-is-responsible-for-violence-in-charlottesville/
And according to Kuros' post above, it seems Mr. West corroborates the ACLU account of police conduct:
| Cornell West wrote: |
And this is very important to keep in mind, because the police, for the most part, pulled back.
...
Meaning that you had the police holding back, on the one hand, so we couldn’t even get arrested. We were there to get arrested. We couldn’t get arrested, because the police had pulled back, and just allowing fellow citizens to go at each other, you see, and with all of the consequences that would follow therefrom. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Thanks Fox. This is so ugly that I do not even know what to say. I hope it all works out, but the prospect for that dims by the day. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
