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The flag of treason & hate no longer at S Carolina's cap
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/23/nazi-german-american-bund-rally-madison-square-garden-215522

Quote:
Some media outlets have likened the images of the recent mayhem in Virginia to the chilling ones of the German-American Bund rally that filled Madison Square Garden on February 20, 1939, with 22,000 hate-spewing American Nazis.

That rally, the largest such conclave in U.S. history, shocked Americans at the time. They had seen the press accounts and newsreel footage of the Nazis’ massive Nuremburg rallies; they had read about Kristallnacht, the murderous, two-day anti-Semitic pogrom of November 1938, which the Bund—the fast-growing, American version of the German Nazi party, which trumpeted the Nazi philosophy, but with a stars-and-stripes twist—had unabashedly endorsed.

...

For the Bund, the unnerving 1939 Madison Square Garden rally was at once the organization’s high point and—as a result of the shock and revulsion it caused—its death knell. It’s too soon to know exactly what effect Charlottesville—which was smaller, but more violent than the Bund’s 1939 demonstration—will have on white nationalists or how the American public, which is still processing the horrific event, will ultimately respond to it.


The biggest difference between them and now is that the far right holds executive power in the United States, and not in Germany's.
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Antifa continues to initiate violence against speech:
Quote:
Antifa is at its core anti-liberal in that it dismisses freedom of speech and peaceful assembly as an instrument of Marcusian "repressive tolerance," or a means by which an unacceptable status quo is maintained through a belief in a supposedly disinterested belief in a marketplace of ideas.

That's the most-charitable explanation for antifa's readiness to commit violence in public, that its members want to deny racists a public forum (in fact, it's not exactly clear what the original organizers of yesterday's march in Berkeley were all about; in any case, it's clear from press reports that the vast majority of people assembled were against any sort of neo-Nazi or alt-right beliefs). Any group that claims "hate speech is not free speech" is going to become not just censorious but violent pretty quickly.

Indeed, a less-charitable explanation, that antifa is an inherently violent group, is far more compelling: Earlier this year in the Bay Area, members of antifa protested speeches at Berkeley by Milo Yiannopoulis and Ann Coulter by roughing up people, lighting fires, and damaging property. They were also responsible for violence and destruction at Donald Trump's inauguration in Washington, D.C. and various other events. Their "self-defense," which they invoke to justify due to what they claim is righteous action against a sick society, is simply a variation on American foreign policy's reliance on "pre-emptive war," which sanctions violence out of the box whenever the powers that be declare it valid.

Again, Trump was right to highlight and condemn their part in the violence in Charlottesville.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

geldedgoat wrote:
Antifa continues to initiate violence against speech:
Quote:
Antifa is at its core anti-liberal in that it dismisses freedom of speech and peaceful assembly as an instrument of Marcusian "repressive tolerance," or a means by which an unacceptable status quo is maintained through a belief in a supposedly disinterested belief in a marketplace of ideas.

That's the most-charitable explanation for antifa's readiness to commit violence in public, that its members want to deny racists a public forum (in fact, it's not exactly clear what the original organizers of yesterday's march in Berkeley were all about; in any case, it's clear from press reports that the vast majority of people assembled were against any sort of neo-Nazi or alt-right beliefs). Any group that claims "hate speech is not free speech" is going to become not just censorious but violent pretty quickly.

Indeed, a less-charitable explanation, that antifa is an inherently violent group, is far more compelling: Earlier this year in the Bay Area, members of antifa protested speeches at Berkeley by Milo Yiannopoulis and Ann Coulter by roughing up people, lighting fires, and damaging property. They were also responsible for violence and destruction at Donald Trump's inauguration in Washington, D.C. and various other events. Their "self-defense," which they invoke to justify due to what they claim is righteous action against a sick society, is simply a variation on American foreign policy's reliance on "pre-emptive war," which sanctions violence out of the box whenever the powers that be declare it valid.

Again, Trump was right to highlight and condemn their part in the violence in Charlottesville.


There's a logical corollary there, though: if the President was correct to do so -- and I agree with geldedgoat that he was, as it seems to have been grounded in the facts as they stand regarding this group and its conduct -- then what stands out is the way in which so many in our society have not only refused to condemn this violence, but have aggressively attacked those who have (e.g. the President), or deflected from the issue with suggestions like, "There are no two sides here," or implications that acknowledging "Antifa" violence is equivalent to giving "comfort and support" to Nazis?

On this matter, a huge number of people with whom I'd otherwise be inclined to share political sympathies are wrong. The mask has more-or-less fallen off of the "egalitarian" movement at this point, and underneath is a face which seems to take little issue with violence, hatred, and discrimination, so long as those things are directed at targets it deems acceptable. The progression from having good intentions, to being willing to behave questionably in seeking the realization of those intentions, to sliding into political violence and tyranny is the story of political violence the world over. Which, again, brings us back to why adherence to underlying principles is so vital: it serves as a check on that degradation, preventing us from using the fact that we see ourselves as willing "the Good" to justify conduct which we would otherwise despise.
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The racist right is obviously more inherently violent than than Antifa - which is just a small anarchistic fringe group of the left that wants to use violence to thwart aggressive acts by violent racists and neo-Nazis - even when strategically disadvantaged in terms of weapons and trained militias... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/opinion/antifa-trump-charlottesville.html?mcubz=3
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
The mask has more-or-less fallen off of the "egalitarian" movement at this point, and underneath is a face which seems to take little issue with violence, hatred, and discrimination, so long as those things are directed at targets it deems acceptable.


Too much.

No need to subtweet. Apparently some of us are "egalitarians" (proponents of equal rights for all).

It will not matter what equal rights proponents do or think or say here. Some people want to condemn us. Its fine. Our society is addled and addicted to outrage and self-righteousness. I certainly suffer from this a bit.

I have not seen any strident defenses of Antifa on this thread. I have remarked on the resurgence of the Nazis and the KKK. That should be the focus. Is it so shocking to see such groups defend statues which symbolize treason and hate? Siriusblack was right, time to drop all deference to what is an attempt at an 'alt-right' re-brand.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Fox wrote:
The mask has more-or-less fallen off of the "egalitarian" movement at this point, and underneath is a face which seems to take little issue with violence, hatred, and discrimination, so long as those things are directed at targets it deems acceptable.


Too much.


No, not too much. Quite possibly not enough, frankly, if we accept that political violence is a real potential problem in our society. I for one do accept that.

Kuros wrote:
I have not seen any strident defenses of Antifa on this thread. I have remarked on the resurgence of the Nazis and the KKK. That should be the focus.


No, that should not be the focus. Political violence should be the focus, because it's political violence which obstructs our Constitutional rights through intimidation and suppression, and political violence which brings real, direct harm to individual citizens. The absurdity of groups like "Neo-Nazis" can be more than adequately countered through peaceful demonstration and dialogue, and should they engage in unprovoked violence, then of course both the full force of law and the social opprobrium which accompanies it will be forthcoming. But even then, even then, there arises absolutely no justification for refraining from including other sources of political violence in the "focus."

Kuros wrote:
Is it so shocking to see such groups defend statues which symbolize treason and hate? Siriusblack was right, time to drop all deference to what is an attempt at an 'alt-right' re-brand.


I'm completely fine with anyone taking issue with Nazis or the KKK; I take issue with them myself. But the answer to, "Is it okay to punch a Nazi?" remains a firm, unequivocal, "No," and those who increasingly seem to believe the answer is, "Yes," are a threat to both the welfare of our citizens and our Constitutional rights of expression. Municipalities have a right to take down these statues; I've already said what I have to say about that matter. Nazis and KKK members have a right to protest those removals. "Antifa" does not have the right to engage in violence in response to those protests. That's the issue as it stands, and to be frank, our country is capable of rejecting Nazism without resorting to this sort of violence. Indeed, groups like "Antifa" -- and any cowardly politician or journalist unable or unwilling to call them what they are and condemn them in loud, unequivocal terms -- are a gift to the "far right," not a curse upon it. Violent thugs attacking otherwise peaceful protesters (example: "Black-clad antifa members attack peaceful right-wing demonstrators in Berkeley") creates an impression which could easily lead otherwise indifferent parties to think those "far right" protesters may have a point.


Last edited by Fox on Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Kuros wrote:
Fox wrote:
The mask has more-or-less fallen off of the "egalitarian" movement at this point, and underneath is a face which seems to take little issue with violence, hatred, and discrimination, so long as those things are directed at targets it deems acceptable.


Too much.


No, not too much. Not enough, frankly: the hypocrisy . . .


Spare me.

Fox wrote:
But the answer to, "Is it okay to punch a Nazi?" remains a firm, unequivocal, "No," and those who increasingly seem to believe the answer is, "Yes," are a threat to both the welfare of our citizens and our Constitutional rights of expression.


So it is wrong to punch an unarmed Nazi just standing in the street. It is more ambiguous when a member of Antifa punches one among an armed group of Nazis who have surrounded a church (or other buildings) and trapped people inside.

Also, the historical amnesia on display seems at least fitting for the thread. I am wondering how many governments Antifa has toppled? How many genocides have Antifa committed?
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Fox wrote:
Kuros wrote:
Fox wrote:
The mask has more-or-less fallen off of the "egalitarian" movement at this point, and underneath is a face which seems to take little issue with violence, hatred, and discrimination, so long as those things are directed at targets it deems acceptable.


Too much.


No, not too much. Not enough, frankly: the hypocrisy . . .


Spare me.


I actually did spare you by editing my post before you responded, but now I can see that perhaps I should not have. Hypocrisy was the correct word.

Kuros wrote:
Fox wrote:
But the answer to, "Is it okay to punch a Nazi?" remains a firm, unequivocal, "No," and those who increasingly seem to believe the answer is, "Yes," are a threat to both the welfare of our citizens and our Constitutional rights of expression.


So it is wrong to punch an unarmed Nazi just standing in the street. It is more ambiguous when a member of Antifa punches one among an armed group of Nazis who have surrounded a church (or other buildings) and trapped people inside.


No, it is not, unless they are about to murder those people, which was almost certainly not the case. The correct answer in such circumstances is to call 9/11 and request immediate police presence. Look, I understand you got suckered by Cornel West's whole, "So that the anti-fascists, and then, crucial, the anarchists, because they saved our lives, actually," but there was no indication that some protesters were going to murder a church full of people in Charlottesville.

Kuros wrote:
Also, the historical amnesia on display seems at least fitting for the thread. I am wondering how many governments Antifa has toppled? How many genocides have Antifa committed?


Are you suggesting American Neo-Nazis and the KKK could topple the American government or successfully commit genocide? If not, this is an irrelevant comment which serves only to distract from actual political violence which is occurring in our society right now. If so, then I must admit I'm amazed at your credulity.

I'm going to go ahead and post this Washington Post article again: Black-clad antifa members attack peaceful right-wing demonstrators in Berkeley. Somehow, the Municipality of Berkley Police Department allowing "Antifa" to attack protesters even the Washington Post admits were peaceful seems more direct and immediate than reminiscence regarding World War II.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Are you suggesting American Neo-Nazis and the KKK could topple the American government or successfully commit genocide?


You have been well off the mark on interpreting most of my posts. So, not precisely, no.

I will quote what I have 'suggested:'

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/23/nazi-german-american-bund-rally-madison-square-garden-215522

Kuros wrote:
Quote:
Some media outlets have likened the images of the recent mayhem in Virginia to the chilling ones of the German-American Bund rally that filled Madison Square Garden on February 20, 1939, with 22,000 hate-spewing American Nazis.

That rally, the largest such conclave in U.S. history, shocked Americans at the time. They had seen the press accounts and newsreel footage of the Nazis’ massive Nuremburg rallies; they had read about Kristallnacht, the murderous, two-day anti-Semitic pogrom of November 1938, which the Bund—the fast-growing, American version of the German Nazi party, which trumpeted the Nazi philosophy, but with a stars-and-stripes twist—had unabashedly endorsed.

...

For the Bund, the unnerving 1939 Madison Square Garden rally was at once the organization’s high point and—as a result of the shock and revulsion it caused—its death knell. It’s too soon to know exactly what effect Charlottesville—which was smaller, but more violent than the Bund’s 1939 demonstration—will have on white nationalists or how the American public, which is still processing the horrific event, will ultimately respond to it.


The biggest difference between them and now is that the far right holds executive power in the United States, and not in Germany's.


Antifa is far more distant from the Executive Branch than the Nazis or the KKK. In fact, one might lay the feet of the rise of Antifa (overall, an unwelcome development, to be sure) at Donald Trump's rhetoric and conduct.

This is an old theme, by the way. Attack protestors rather than the message. In this case, Fox has decided to hone in on the agitators rather than the thousands upon thousands of peaceful counter-protestors who came out to drown out Nazi/KKK hate.

The message is simple: oppose violent racism and hate. Its kindergarten simple. BUT WHAT ABOUT ANTIFA! C'mon, is it really free speech that has y'all worked up? Doubtful.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Fox wrote:
Are you suggesting American Neo-Nazis and the KKK could topple the American government or successfully commit genocide?


You have been well off the mark on interpreting most of my posts. So, not precisely, no.


"Then this is an irrelevant comment which serves only to distract from actual political violence which is occurring in our society right now."

Kuros wrote:
I will quote what I have 'suggested:'

...

Antifa is far more distant from the Executive Branch than the Nazis or the KKK. In fact, one might lay the feet of the rise of Antifa (overall, an unwelcome development, to be sure) at Donald Trump's rhetoric and conduct.


So now we're are blaming President Trump not only for Nazis, but for Antifa as well, eh? Yet if the "rise of Antifa [is] an unwelcome development," then surely the President was correct to condemn it and it's violence. Unless the President condemning political violence is wrong?

Kuros wrote:
This is an old theme, by the way. Attack protestors rather than the message. In this case, Fox has decided to hone in on the agitators rather than the thousands upon thousands of peaceful counter-protestors who came out to drown out Nazi/KKK hate.


I'm taking issue with the violence and the illiberal ideas underlying it (e.g. "hate speech isn't free speech), not peaceful counter-protesters. In fact, I explicitly endorsed peaceful counter-protest as the legitimate way to respond:

Quote:
The absurdity of groups like "Neo-Nazis" can be more than adequately countered through peaceful demonstration and dialogue


I say little more about them because their behavior is legitimate, both legally and morally. Peaceful counter-protest is constitutionally protected speech, and moreover, speech expressing the ideas I myself have expressed regarding Confederate monuments. Of course I take no issue with individuals expressing my own ideas, and indeed, the association of Antifa violence with peaceful counter-protesters expressing my ideas is a further concern to me.

Kuros wrote:
The message is simple: oppose violent racism and hate.Its kindergarten simple. BUT WHAT ABOUT ANTIFA!


Let's introduce a slight change: "oppose violence, racism, and hate." That seems like a fine message to me. Indeed, it's my primary issue with Antifa: they engage in hate and, more importantly, explicitly support and utilize violence. That's what makes this all so absurd: if someone actually opposes violence, "What about Antifa?" is not only a legitimate question, but a necessary one. So why is it so hard to simply condemn it in clear, unequivocal terms? Why not just agree and move on? Why bring up absurd narratives (no, Antifa probably did not save a church full of people from a wave of would-be mass murderers) and irrelevant appeals to history (even if a Nazi uprising were to occur, thuggish political violence would be more likely to fuel it than suppress it)?

My position here is clear and consistent: supportive of constitutional rights, opposed to violence, and demanding a foundation in and acknowledgment of facts. These have been perennial themes in my posts here; any poster which might suggest that I'm only feigning concern for freedom of expression, for example, either has lost their mnemonic faculties, or is knowingly subordinating truth to rhetorical expediency.

I think that's all I have to say on that matter.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Kuros wrote:
I will quote what I have 'suggested:'

...

Antifa is far more distant from the Executive Branch than the Nazis or the KKK. In fact, one might lay the feet of the rise of Antifa (overall, an unwelcome development, to be sure) at Donald Trump's rhetoric and conduct.


So now we're are blaming President Trump not only for Nazis, but for Antifa as well, eh?


President Trump is partly to blame for open Nazi marches and also the rise of Antifa.

Yes, the President who extolled violence at his rallies promoted violence across the political spectrum.

Fox wrote:
Yet if the "rise of Antifa [is] an unwelcome development," then surely the President was correct to condemn it and it's violence. Unless the President condemning political violence is wrong?


The President did not condemn political violence. He blurred the lines between Heather's killers and a bunch of mere Antifa demonstrators. Trump: "violence on both sides, on both sides."

Fox wrote:
So why is it so hard to simply condemn it in clear, unequivocal terms? Why not just agree and move on?


Antifa should eschew violence, of course.

But Antifa did not kill Heather Heyer.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2017/08/28/read-what-susan-bro-heather-heyers-mother-said-during-her-tribute-the-vma-awards/

Quote:
“They tried to kill my child to shut her up, but guess what, you just magnified her,” Bro said. “I’d rather have my child, but by golly if I got to give her up, we’re going to make it count.”


Also, Fox, I do not trust your approach to this subject. You came out swinging and strawmanning against "egalitarians." That earned some real pushback. It was your hostile approach.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:

Also, Fox, I do not trust your approach to this subject. You came out swinging and strawmanning against "egalitarians." That earned some real pushback. It was your hostile approach.


I'll accept that. As I have aged, the vinegar in my veins has diluted, but I still find it manifesting at times in sarcasm or rhetorical hostility, and it's not always justified. I stand by the principles I articulated, but agree I could have phrases them in a more civil way, so I'm willing to apologize for that.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Kuros wrote:

Also, Fox, I do not trust your approach to this subject. You came out swinging and strawmanning against "egalitarians." That earned some real pushback. It was your hostile approach.


I'll accept that. As I have aged, the vinegar in my veins has diluted, but I still find it manifesting at times in sarcasm or rhetorical hostility, and it's not always justified. I stand by the principles I articulated, but agree I could have phrases them in a more civil way, so I'm willing to apologize for that.


That's very classy of you, Fox. I apologize for my defensiveness. You should have earned the benefit of the doubt from me by now.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shane Bauer live-tweeted the Antifa beating at Berkeley.

Here is what he has to say about the Berkeley protests: http://www.motherjones.com/media/2017/08/what-the-media-got-wrong-about-last-weekends-protests-in-berkeley/
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Violence used to protect people from aggressive hate-mongers is a positive thing.

Violence used to advance the idea of ethnic/racial/genetic cleansing is a negative thing ...
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