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Should The U.S. Scale Back Relations With Israel?
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
I think the idea that mass conversion will happen is magical thinking, but perhaps when you said long term you meant incredibly so because I doubt we will see it in our lifetime.


It would probably be a multi-generational project. Long term thinking is a requisite of good governance.

Leon wrote:
I guess an interesting case study would be looking at how Jews from Soviet countries were integrated. (Side point from other thread-if communism is a jewish plot why did they restrict jewish immigration to israel, and why wasnt the USSR aligned with Israel?) My understanding is that they weren't interested, in general, in forming an Israeli identity, speaking Hebrew, etc. I think they formed something like 10% of the population in a quick period of time, had their own preestablished networks, brought organized crime to Israel etc. Hardly the same, but a worthwhile comparison.


Sure, that seems relevant as well. The important thing, though, is that the concept of "Jewishness" offers a means of integration which western countries frequently lack, and the people in question do have some historic relation to Judaism.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Leon wrote:
I think the idea that mass conversion will happen is magical thinking, but perhaps when you said long term you meant incredibly so because I doubt we will see it in our lifetime.


It would probably be a multi-generational project. Long term thinking is a requisite of good governance.



Yes, and something sorely lacking with the current Israeli government.

I do not see Bibi, Lieberman, or any on the right in favor of converting Palestinians to Judaism.

As Leon said, you have a novel idea, but I am skeptical the motivation on either side will ever come close to being sufficient for it to take place.

Never say never, and it might eventually happen, but I am guessing it will be an entirely different world by the time it occurs.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trueblue wrote:
GENO123 wrote:
Swartz wrote:
Propaganda lesson: This is how you mongrelize and destroy the genetic and cultural identity and cohesion of a group. You repeat over and over and over again that they NEED outsiders to infiltrate their society in large numbers; then braindead cattle like the fellow above will repeat it to others as if it is in any way actually true.

Here’s the reality: The US is beyond bankrupt, it has more debt than it will ever be able to repay. Low IQ immigrants are a net burden financially and otherwise on that system and an economy that has exported low-skilled labor at a record pace while facing increased automation. No nation of people “needs” immigration; but corrupt capitalists certainly want cheaper labor.

Japan will be fine, back to Israel.


ignorant


How?
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swartz wrote:
GENO123 wrote:
Swartz wrote:
GENO123 wrote:
Japan can not fund itself on tax revenues you handsome genius. And taxe revenues go down as they age.


That's still no reason to fundamentally alter the nation's demographics.


only cause they won't be able to have the tax revenue to support the government. Japan's debt is 23x times tax revenues. And it will get worse you dope. You have the economic sense that god gave a sheep.


Debt is a tool that is used to control people and nations, and blind servitude to paying off interest on endless piles of debt will not last forever. There will come a day when Japan and many others will tell the international web of Jewish creditors and financiers to get out of their countries, and they'll default on that debt and nationalize their banking systems. Importing outsiders is not the answer to these kinds of problems.




What is wrong with that statement?

Any takers?

True Blue you wanna give it a go?
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swartz wrote:
I agree Stitch, good post from Sirius, who seems to understand the crux of the main existential roadblock we face in the West. From time to time I check the comments at the Huffpos when I see an article on Israel, and I’m always pleasantly surprised that this message has reached the left in the numbers it has. It shows that there may be hope ahead and highlights an interesting new paradigm. The omnipowerful Jewish diaspora, as ethnic liberals/communists, being partially sold out by their democratic base and having to turn to fake conservative politicians and the flyover country’s brainwashed Evangelicals they resent so deeply, is quite a twist. However, they were ahead of that issue and have had every mega preacher in their pocket for decades (their elite being used to playing both sides for the last few hundred years or so).

Folks, the conundrum we face now is that 2-3% of the population control 93% of the media/Hollywood/publishing, etc., most of Wall Street and significant other big financial institutions, our elite universities (elite feeder Harvard being at least 25% Jewish per Ron Unz’s article on the subject), multitudes of think-tanks and vast swaths of our political policy in return so we can take out their foes in the Middle East and ship Muslims to Europe en masse; not to mention having a lot of control of other things that negatively affect our domestic culture like gangster rap (Jerry Heller from NWA) and large portions of the pornography industry. They’re a very smart, cunning group of people. And they are able to do what they do and subvert their host populations because they have a dominant group evolutionary strategy. But, most importantly, control over our monetary system and centrally planned institutions like the EU.

The question now is, how do we deal with this disproportional influence over our societies? The group of people who now controls the US are the descendants of the groups that took over Russia by way of the Bolshevik Revolution, which killed 20 million Russians, and the most elite classes of Russians, at that. Given the influence the mass media (somehow, still) has over western countries and the taboo towards showing any form of ethnic pride, if Europeans or European-derived people become minorities in their home countries, we will likely suffer greatly and eventually become extinct.
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trueblue



Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GENO123 wrote:
Swartz wrote:
I agree Stitch, good post from Sirius, who seems to understand the crux of the main existential roadblock we face in the West. From time to time I check the comments at the Huffpos when I see an article on Israel, and I’m always pleasantly surprised that this message has reached the left in the numbers it has. It shows that there may be hope ahead and highlights an interesting new paradigm. The omnipowerful Jewish diaspora, as ethnic liberals/communists, being partially sold out by their democratic base and having to turn to fake conservative politicians and the flyover country’s brainwashed Evangelicals they resent so deeply, is quite a twist. However, they were ahead of that issue and have had every mega preacher in their pocket for decades (their elite being used to playing both sides for the last few hundred years or so).

Folks, the conundrum we face now is that 2-3% of the population control 93% of the media/Hollywood/publishing, etc., most of Wall Street and significant other big financial institutions, our elite universities (elite feeder Harvard being at least 25% Jewish per Ron Unz’s article on the subject), multitudes of think-tanks and vast swaths of our political policy in return so we can take out their foes in the Middle East and ship Muslims to Europe en masse; not to mention having a lot of control of other things that negatively affect our domestic culture like gangster rap (Jerry Heller from NWA) and large portions of the pornography industry. They’re a very smart, cunning group of people. And they are able to do what they do and subvert their host populations because they have a dominant group evolutionary strategy. But, most importantly, control over our monetary system and centrally planned institutions like the EU.

The question now is, how do we deal with this disproportional influence over our societies? The group of people who now controls the US are the descendants of the groups that took over Russia by way of the Bolshevik Revolution, which killed 20 million Russians, and the most elite classes of Russians, at that. Given the influence the mass media (somehow, still) has over western countries and the taboo towards showing any form of ethnic pride, if Europeans or European-derived people become minorities in their home countries, we will likely suffer greatly and eventually become extinct.


and where is exactly is the fault, psycho girl?
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trueblue wrote:
GENO123 wrote:
Swartz wrote:
I agree Stitch, good post from Sirius, who seems to understand the crux of the main existential roadblock we face in the West. From time to time I check the comments at the Huffpos when I see an article on Israel, and I’m always pleasantly surprised that this message has reached the left in the numbers it has. It shows that there may be hope ahead and highlights an interesting new paradigm. The omnipowerful Jewish diaspora, as ethnic liberals/communists, being partially sold out by their democratic base and having to turn to fake conservative politicians and the flyover country’s brainwashed Evangelicals they resent so deeply, is quite a twist. However, they were ahead of that issue and have had every mega preacher in their pocket for decades (their elite being used to playing both sides for the last few hundred years or so).

Folks, the conundrum we face now is that 2-3% of the population control 93% of the media/Hollywood/publishing, etc., most of Wall Street and significant other big financial institutions, our elite universities (elite feeder Harvard being at least 25% Jewish per Ron Unz’s article on the subject), multitudes of think-tanks and vast swaths of our political policy in return so we can take out their foes in the Middle East and ship Muslims to Europe en masse; not to mention having a lot of control of other things that negatively affect our domestic culture like gangster rap (Jerry Heller from NWA) and large portions of the pornography industry. They’re a very smart, cunning group of people. And they are able to do what they do and subvert their host populations because they have a dominant group evolutionary strategy. But, most importantly, control over our monetary system and centrally planned institutions like the EU.

The question now is, how do we deal with this disproportional influence over our societies? The group of people who now controls the US are the descendants of the groups that took over Russia by way of the Bolshevik Revolution, which killed 20 million Russians, and the most elite classes of Russians, at that. Given the influence the mass media (somehow, still) has over western countries and the taboo towards showing any form of ethnic pride, if Europeans or European-derived people become minorities in their home countries, we will likely suffer greatly and eventually become extinct.


and where is exactly is the fault, psycho girl?


So take it that you agree with this ?


Anyway let me ask you do you think "the Jews " are responsible for the crimes of Stalin? and that they killed 20 million during WW2

& that "The Jews subvert their host populations"
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trueblue wrote:
GENO123 wrote:
Swartz wrote:
I agree Stitch, good post from Sirius, who seems to understand the crux of the main existential roadblock we face in the West. From time to time I check the comments at the Huffpos when I see an article on Israel, and I’m always pleasantly surprised that this message has reached the left in the numbers it has. It shows that there may be hope ahead and highlights an interesting new paradigm. The omnipowerful Jewish diaspora, as ethnic liberals/communists, being partially sold out by their democratic base and having to turn to fake conservative politicians and the flyover country’s brainwashed Evangelicals they resent so deeply, is quite a twist. However, they were ahead of that issue and have had every mega preacher in their pocket for decades (their elite being used to playing both sides for the last few hundred years or so).

Folks, the conundrum we face now is that 2-3% of the population control 93% of the media/Hollywood/publishing, etc., most of Wall Street and significant other big financial institutions, our elite universities (elite feeder Harvard being at least 25% Jewish per Ron Unz’s article on the subject), multitudes of think-tanks and vast swaths of our political policy in return so we can take out their foes in the Middle East and ship Muslims to Europe en masse; not to mention having a lot of control of other things that negatively affect our domestic culture like gangster rap (Jerry Heller from NWA) and large portions of the pornography industry. They’re a very smart, cunning group of people. And they are able to do what they do and subvert their host populations because they have a dominant group evolutionary strategy. But, most importantly, control over our monetary system and centrally planned institutions like the EU.

The question now is, how do we deal with this disproportional influence over our societies? The group of people who now controls the US are the descendants of the groups that took over Russia by way of the Bolshevik Revolution, which killed 20 million Russians, and the most elite classes of Russians, at that. Given the influence the mass media (somehow, still) has over western countries and the taboo towards showing any form of ethnic pride, if Europeans or European-derived people become minorities in their home countries, we will likely suffer greatly and eventually become extinct.


and where is exactly is the fault, psycho girl?
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trueblue



Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So take it that you agree with this ?


Anyway let me ask you do you think "the Jews " are responsible for the crimes of Stalin? and that they killed 20 million during WW2

& that "The Jews subvert their host populations"



Do you?
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trueblue wrote:
Quote:
So take it that you agree with this ?


Anyway let me ask you do you think "the Jews " are responsible for the crimes of Stalin? and that they killed 20 million during WW2

& that "The Jews subvert their host populations"



Do you?


It is just neo nazi stuff.

So how about an answer cause your response was pretty lame , even for you.
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both Trump and Hillary are big supporters of Israel. So there won't be a scale back anytime soon. Obama is pretty much as "anti-Israel" you get in a president.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "Two State Solution" seems to be fast losing traction.

Quote:
...

Amid the harsh exchanges was the increasing sense that the two-state solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict favored by much of the world no longer seems plausible, at least for now. When Mr. Kerry outlined six principles for a final land-for-peace agreement, he largely tracked longstanding American orthodoxy. But unlike when President Bill Clinton did something similar 16 years ago, it sounded more like a requiem than a plan.

“The positions he lays out are well known to all of us,” said Michael Herzog, a member of the Israeli negotiating team during the latest round of failed talks, led by Mr. Kerry in 2014. “There were no major surprises. The question is, does it really matter?”

Indeed, among the blaring, polarized responses to Mr. Kerry’s speech, the one conclusion that drew agreement across political lines was that the two-state solution may be all but buried.

“This will go down in history as an eloquently delivered eulogy to the two-state formula, which is in itself a recipe for disaster,” said Oded Revivi, the chief foreign envoy of the Yesha Council, which represents Israeli settlers.

“John Kerry just gave an eloquent eulogy for the two-state solution,” said Ali Abunimah, a Palestinian-American activist who helped found the Electronic Intifada, a website focused on the Palestinian side of the conflict.

While Mr. Netanyahu still formally supports a two-state solution, few believe his heart is in it, and voices on the far sides of the conflict are increasingly talking about a one-state solution, albeit one conceived in starkly different ways.

From his right flank, Mr. Netanyahu faces calls within his coalition to give up the two-state formula and instead annex parts of the West Bank. From the other side, some Palestinians now advocate a single state from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River in which everyone has an equal vote, knowing that Palestinians would ultimately outnumber Jewish citizens in such a country.

...


Both Israelis and Palestinians seem to be realizing that the only logical end game of Israel's tolerance of settlement construction is a single, unified Israeli state; if it is not yet a fait accompli, it is nearly so, and it will be so before anything material can change the situation. But of course Israeli Jews have no interest in becoming a hated minority in their own country, so how can one reconcile the current residents of Palestine with a single, unified state? If the Israeli government has been far-sighted enough to play the game as I suggested they've been playing it -- and they seem to be doing exactly what I predicted thus far -- then what's the next step? There are only three real possibilities:

1) Mass expulsion.
2) Permanent apartheid.
3) Progressive conversion.

Permanent apartheid has proven to be a politically unstable situation; the world at large won't support it (at least if it's people of European descent doing it), and all it takes is a momentary weakness of political will for such a system to collapse, so unless Israel wants to end up like South Africa in the long term, that's probably not what they have in mind as an end result. Mass expulsion of the full population of Palestine would also be difficult to achieve, because their fellow Muslims have proven they are willing to refuse to allow them to integrate just to maintain them as political props. So what option is there for a presumptive unified Israel except progressive conversion? It wouldn't have to be a total sweep in a single generation, merely enough to ensure continued demographic dominance by the Jewish, with citizenship granted upon conversion and contingent upon the sincerity of that conversion. Whereas South Africa utilized apartheid in hopes of easing its way towards national separation, Israel could just as easily utilize it to ease its way towards unity.

Novel? Perhaps, but the Jewish people have, if nothing else, proven themselves to be world class with regards to novelty of thought. It's the only logical next step which is both non-monstrous and conductive to long-term national unity.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
The "Two State Solution" seems to be fast losing traction.

Quote:
...

Amid the harsh exchanges was the increasing sense that the two-state solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict favored by much of the world no longer seems plausible, at least for now. When Mr. Kerry outlined six principles for a final land-for-peace agreement, he largely tracked longstanding American orthodoxy. But unlike when President Bill Clinton did something similar 16 years ago, it sounded more like a requiem than a plan.

“The positions he lays out are well known to all of us,” said Michael Herzog, a member of the Israeli negotiating team during the latest round of failed talks, led by Mr. Kerry in 2014. “There were no major surprises. The question is, does it really matter?”

Indeed, among the blaring, polarized responses to Mr. Kerry’s speech, the one conclusion that drew agreement across political lines was that the two-state solution may be all but buried.

“This will go down in history as an eloquently delivered eulogy to the two-state formula, which is in itself a recipe for disaster,” said Oded Revivi, the chief foreign envoy of the Yesha Council, which represents Israeli settlers.

“John Kerry just gave an eloquent eulogy for the two-state solution,” said Ali Abunimah, a Palestinian-American activist who helped found the Electronic Intifada, a website focused on the Palestinian side of the conflict.

While Mr. Netanyahu still formally supports a two-state solution, few believe his heart is in it, and voices on the far sides of the conflict are increasingly talking about a one-state solution, albeit one conceived in starkly different ways.

From his right flank, Mr. Netanyahu faces calls within his coalition to give up the two-state formula and instead annex parts of the West Bank. From the other side, some Palestinians now advocate a single state from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River in which everyone has an equal vote, knowing that Palestinians would ultimately outnumber Jewish citizens in such a country.

...


Both Israelis and Palestinians seem to be realizing that the only logical end game of Israel's tolerance of settlement construction is a single, unified Israeli state; if it is not yet a fait accompli, it is nearly so, and it will be so before anything material can change the situation. But of course Israeli Jews have no interest in becoming a hated minority in their own country, so how can one reconcile the current residents of Palestine with a single, unified state? If the Israeli government has been far-sighted enough to play the game as I suggested they've been playing it -- and they seem to be doing exactly what I predicted thus far -- then what's the next step? There are only three real possibilities:

1) Mass expulsion.
2) Permanent apartheid.
3) Progressive conversion.

Permanent apartheid has proven to be a politically unstable situation; the world at large won't support it (at least if it's people of European descent doing it), and all it takes is a momentary weakness of political will for such a system to collapse, so unless Israel wants to end up like South Africa in the long term, that's probably not what they have in mind as an end result. Mass expulsion of the full population of Palestine would also be difficult to achieve, because their fellow Muslims have proven they are willing to refuse to allow them to integrate just to maintain them as political props. So what option is there for a presumptive unified Israel except progressive conversion? It wouldn't have to be a total sweep in a single generation, merely enough to ensure continued demographic dominance by the Jewish, with citizenship granted upon conversion and contingent upon the sincerity of that conversion. Whereas South Africa utilized apartheid in hopes of easing its way towards national separation, Israel could just as easily utilize it to ease its way towards unity.

Novel? Perhaps, but the Jewish people have, if nothing else, proven themselves to be world class with regards to novelty of thought. It's the only logical next step which is both non-monstrous and conductive to long-term national unity.


I strongly suspect that many in power in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank benefit massively from the status quo, and that their long-term plan is to continue it until it collapses.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did Trump Kill Off a Two-State Solution? He Says No, Palestinians Say Yes.

Quote:
WASHINGTON — President Trump, in formally recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel on Wednesday, declared that the United States still supported a two-state solution to settle the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians, provided it was “agreed to by both sides.”

For the first time in his 26 years as a peacemaker, the chief negotiator for the Palestinians did not agree.

Saeb Erekat, the secretary general of the Palestine Liberation Organization and a steadfast advocate for a Palestinian state, said in an interview on Thursday that Mr. Trump and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel “have managed to destroy that hope.” He embraced a radical shift in the P.L.O.’s goals — to a single state, but with Palestinians enjoying the same civil rights as Israelis, including the vote.

“They’ve left us with no option,” he said. “This is the reality. We live here. Our struggle should focus on one thing: equal rights.”

Mr. Erekat’s change of heart is unlikely to change Palestinian policy. The dream of a Palestinian state is too deeply ingrained in a generation of its leaders for the Palestinian Authority to abandon it now. Israel would be unlikely to accede to equal rights, because granting a vote to millions of Palestinians would eventually lead to the end of Israel as a Jewish state.

But the fact that Mr. Erekat is speaking openly about it attests to the turmoil caused in the Middle East by Mr. Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem. More so than the protests that erupted in the West Bank, which injured dozens of people but were less intense than expected, the comments of senior Palestinians like Mr. Erekat captured the profound sense of despair.

...


He's right about it being the logical outcome of the reality on the ground, but wrong about the actions of the President being a proximate cause of that. This was more like a slap in the face that brings one to one's senses.

Quote:
...

Mr. Erekat said he planned to push within the Palestinian National Council, the P.L.O.’s parliament, for a shift in strategy. The president of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, hinted at such a move in his speech to the United Nations General Assembly in September.

But even if Mr. Erekat were able to persuade Mr. Abbas to give up the two-state dream, it would be a wrenching change for a generation of Palestinian leaders who made the difficult journey to coming to terms with their diminished territory after the Arab-Israeli War of 1967.

“It’s hard to see how you can go down that route without at some stage divesting yourself of a semblance of a self-governing authority,” said Daniel Levy, the London-based president of the U.S./Middle East Project. “You’ve got to call time on the Palestinian Authority, which never became a state.”

Instead, Mr. Levy said he believed that the peace process, and the Palestinians, were in a “transitional period,” in which the two-state solution had failed for now. But he added, “what people have done can be undone.”
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