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Diplomatic breakthrough with North Korea? - less likely now.
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Non



Joined: 22 May 2013

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trump is not only not prepared, he has actually bragged about not being prepared.
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, despite the fact that Trump is a big self-serving liar, at least tensions on the Korean peninsula and threat of imminent nuclear war have been greatly reduced from a few months ago ...
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And who caused those tensions? Here's a hint: the name starts with T.
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Non



Joined: 22 May 2013

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, much of the threat was due to the chickenhawk in chief's tough guy tweets. No props for deescalating a situation he was largely responsible for.

(I call him a chickenhawk because he idolizes the military but has never served a day. You see, he got out of Vietnam on the basis of mysterious "bone spurs". He then mocks John McCain--a man with courage he can't conceive of--for getting caught. Then he brags about how he would've run into Parkland High School unarmed. Uh, yeah.)

Anyway, I guess my question is, where did this idea that Trump is some sort of "master negotiator" come from? Because from where I'm sitting, it looks like he got played for a fool. So, what are Trump's actual negotiation feats? He doesn't seem to know what he's doing.

He agreed to stop joint military exercises with the South. (He didn't tell them about this, but then, stabbing our allies in the back is what he does as he embraces dictators). Not only that, but he actually adopted and parroted the NK position on these war games. And Trump made this concession from a position of strength! And got nothing in return. Nothing but a photo opp, an agreement to agree about certain vague things, and to have another meeting sometime.

He did more than grant Kim "legitimacy" by meeting him. He showered the "very talented man" with praise. Just as Bush looked into Putin's soul, so looked Trump into Kim's, and decided "I do trust him."

Trump seems to think he has made some sort of miraculous breakthrough here, but the truth is, we've been down this road with NK before--much further down this road actually, with agreements with actual details--and it always ends the same. Maybe this time will be different, but if it does, it will because Kim sees that he can get whatever he wants out of Trump just by dangling the bait of sweet, sweet praise and adulation before him.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rteacher wrote:
Well, despite the fact that Trump is a big self-serving liar, at least tensions on the Korean peninsula and threat of imminent nuclear war have been greatly reduced from a few months ago ...


I basically agree, and I'm a little bit chagrined at Democrats and Cold War nostalgists who are taking Trump to task for publically praising KJU after the summit. These are negotiations about international issues, you don't end them by saying "And by the way, the guy I just signed the agreement with is a mass-murdering scumbag."

Well, actually, Trump, under different circumstances, MIGHT do something like that, at which point I would fully expect him to be attacked by respectable liberal opinion the world over for "belligerent rhetoric demonizing another country."
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frankhenry



Joined: 13 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

President Donald Trump, the PEACE MAKER.

Very Happy
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Non



Joined: 22 May 2013

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand wrote:
Rteacher wrote:
Well, despite the fact that Trump is a big self-serving liar, at least tensions on the Korean peninsula and threat of imminent nuclear war have been greatly reduced from a few months ago ...


I basically agree, and I'm a little bit chagrined at Democrats and Cold War nostalgists who are taking Trump to task for publically praising KJU after the summit. These are negotiations about international issues, you don't end them by saying "And by the way, the guy I just signed the agreement with is a mass-murdering scumbag."

Well, actually, Trump, under different circumstances, MIGHT do something like that, at which point I would fully expect him to be attacked by respectable liberal opinion the world over for "belligerent rhetoric demonizing another country."


False dichotomy. Accepting for the sake of argument that it would be counterproductive to call Kim out for the mass-murdering scumbag he is, there is still no need for Trump to go to the other extreme and gush with praise for Kim. Theres no way to walk back such flowery praise. Can you imagine the outcry from Fox News if a Demcratic POTUS had said such things? Trump could simply talk about how he believes Kim sees it in his best intetests to pursue diplomacy, etc. Notice also that much of what Trump praises Kim for is essentially, being an autocrat--which is inseparable from the whole mass-murdering scumbag thing. Which undermines the cause of human rights.
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frankhenry



Joined: 13 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

President Donald J. Trump has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, again.

Genius!

A noble man for a noble cause.

PEACE
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Non



Joined: 22 May 2013

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A "noble" man...what a joke. Tell me, is it "noble" to lie constantly, about everything? To attack the free press? To savage our democratic allies and embrace dictators? To use the power of the office to enrich yourself? To obstruct justice? To mock a veteran for being captured when you yourself dodged the draft?

There has never been a president more deficient in virtue. Yet this swamp creature is held up as paragon of virtue, an ideal man, by half the country.

We are beyond lost.
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rteacher wrote:
Well, despite the fact that Trump is a big self-serving liar, at least tensions on the Korean peninsula and threat of imminent nuclear war have been greatly reduced from a few months ago ...


You seem to forget who created those tensions over the last few months.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Non wrote:

False dichotomy. Accepting for the sake of argument that it would be counterproductive to call Kim out for the mass-murdering scumbag he is, there is still no need for Trump to go to the other extreme and gush with praise for Kim.


From a Korean cultural perspective, there probably is some benefit in "go[ing] to the other extreme," actually: Koreans prize human to human connections and the cultivation of positive sentiments in their dealings. Given that, superficial praise and behavior which creates good feelings on a personal level is potentially a useful tactic in dealing with the Kim Regime, and one that comes at little cost, especially given President Trump has shown himself more than willing to alter his public assessment of others at his pleasure. In fact, one of the most inane criticisms of the summit which I have read was the suggestion that, "And whatever happens, it is hard to imagine President Trump going back to talk about preventive military strikes." One would have to be singularly unobservant to think that anything the President said today would be a fetter preventing him from going back and saying something else tomorrow, should he feel it beneficial. This is not a man bound by that "hobgoblin" consistency.

On a personal level, your position is my position: I prefer to be genuine in expressing my thoughts, even at the potential cost of desired outcomes. Given that, I certainly understand your sentiment. But from a purely objective standpoint, I can also understand the opposite position, in which outcomes are prioritized over honest expression. In this regard, it probably more useful to judge the President by his own implicit standard: he obviously values results over honesty, so if he achieves meaningful results in the long term, then that is something, and if not, then he will have failed even by his own measure. You ask, "Can you imagine the outcry from Fox News if a Demcratic POTUS had said such things?" Yes, I can imagine it, because Fox News is an explicitly partisan organization. I don't consider Fox News admirable in this regard, so why should we act as if their conduct is worthy of emulation? This is part of what makes me feel On the Other Hand has a point here: the reflexive bile really does resemble Fox News' method of operation. Don't mistake me, I see cause for pessimism and skepticism, especially since this is just one small step which would need a lot of additional substantive progress to be meaningful. It's simply that hollow pleasantries are not among the factors justifying those positions.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In fact, one of the most inane criticisms of the summit which I have read was the suggestion that, "And whatever happens, it is hard to imagine President Trump going back to talk about preventive military strikes." One would have to be singularly unobservant to think that anything the President said today would be a fetter preventing him from going back and saying something else tomorrow, should he feel it beneficial. This is not a man bound by that "hobgoblin" consistency.


Indeed. Trump during the GOP primaries declared himself "very neutral" on the status of Jerusalem. We all know how consistent he was in maintaining that stance.

As for praising KJU specifically for his dictatorial tendencies, that's not quite the absolute taboo in American politics that some may think...

Quote:
For some people, Mr. Kissinger acknowledges, “the tremendous suffering Mao inflicted on his people will dwarf his achievements.” But he also delivers this coldblooded rationalization: “If China remains united and emerges as a 21st-century superpower,” many Chinese may come to regard him as they do the early emperor Qin Shihuang, “whose excesses were later acknowledged by some as a necessary evil.”


Granted, Kissinger has never been the president, but his praise for Mao in 2011 certainly didn't get him drummed out of respectable society, and in fact a later book he wrote was endorsed by none other than Hillary Clinton.

Quote:
Kissinger is a friend, and I relied on his counsel when I served as secretary of state. He checked in with me regularly, sharing astute observations about foreign leaders and sending me written reports on his travels. Though we have often seen the world and some of our challenges quite differently, and advocated different responses now and in the past, what comes through clearly in this new book is a conviction that we, and President Obama, share: a belief in the indispensability of continued American leadership in service of a just and liberal order.


link

link
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