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Harpeau
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
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 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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I have a big problem with people who buy fake degrees off of the Internet. I think that it is very unethical. In addition, maybe it's time that hogwan owners, university directors, etc. check to confirm that the degree is legit by making a phone call to the university.
A degree is something that an individual spends much time, energy and money on attaining. If you have to fake it, then I would suggest using it for tp., because that's what it's worth.
Harpeau |
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Rand Al Thor
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Locked in an epic struggle
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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If you have to rely on faking it, then you have serious problems. Work hard and earn your credentials.
You reap what you sow - and if you use faked credentials eventially it will come back to haunt you. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 7:14 pm Post subject: well |
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I dont know,,
I mean here in korea, we are talking about right guys?
so what, you guys saying we spent 4 years at UNI so we could come to korea and teach 9 year old korean kids to speak English???
well I didnt!! I ended up here because I like the life style and the pay is alright and I enjoy having my friends here...
I think the majority of us are the same, we dont have English Degrees we have degrees in marketing, political science, computers, history bla rblar blar.. we are all the same at the end of the day!! yes we may have earned our degrees but I dont care if the new guy is here faking it!!
*beep* thats his business! good on him!!
if he was to get my marketing job with a fake degree, but have experience then also good on him, but if he had no experience then I would be pissed, but still the boss picked him!!!
I dont know! no point bitching about what others are doing!!
its not rocket science this ESL GIG, Its not like you really need to be a college grad to keep up!!!
serious teachers should be working in serious schools, UNI's, private training companies teaching advanced English, TOFEL etc...
serious teachers dont teach 7-12 year olds! you know that!!!
I mean may take our work seriously but you know what I mean..
kim dae jung didnt even graduate UNI, the owner and founder of Hyundae didnt even finish elementary school!!!!
*beep* bill gates dropped out of HAVARD!!!
sometimes having a diploma in your hand doesnt make you the better person... Its up to you!!
think about this, how about a guy who never went to UNI but has been in ASIA teaching illegally for 5 years, and then their is you who just graduated with a degree in biology, you both go for the same job!!
who is the better person for the job!!???
degree or no degree!!!
so what!!
us humans are raised in a rat race, its win or lose, dog eat dog world!
we are use to it...
thats life, its who you know, not what you know , its how pretty you are not how good are you...
its blar blar blar blar....
you know where I stand!! |
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VC
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:39 am Post subject: Re: well |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
I dont know,,
I mean here in korea, we are talking about right guys?
so what, you guys saying we spent 4 years at UNI so we could come to korea and teach 9 year old korean kids to speak English???
well I didnt!! I ended up here because I like the life style and the pay is alright and I enjoy having my friends here...
!! |
That is NOT the point here. The point is that using fake degrees is illegal. Period. Full stop. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. People using fake degrees cheapen the ones that were obtained with hard work.
I'll put it another way. If you don't have the brains to get a real degree, then you most likely don't have the brains to be an effective teacher...or effective anything else come to that. Sure there may be exceptions who can get by on charm, but sooner or later they will get caught.
And oh yes, just because students like a teacher, doesn't mean he or she is a great teacher. There used to be another native teacher at my hakwon. Most of the other kids prefered him. Why? Because just about every class he played Scrabble, Bingo, Hangman and that was it, as far as teaching went. Sure he was "popular" and a nice guy...but the students who wanted to learn cut his classes to come to mine. (We have a number of students who are going to the West to study), so we have some serious "studyheads" as the Korean teachers refer to them.
Anyway as of late Immigration is getting more serious. One can only hope they start cracking down and going all the way in order to keep out fake degrees. They won't get them all, but at least it will clear a lot of "driftwood" out of Korea. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: well |
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!![/quote]
That is NOT the point here. The point is that using fake degrees is illegal. Period. Full stop. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. People using fake degrees cheapen the ones that were obtained with hard work.
I'll put it another way. If you don't have the brains to get a real degree, then you most likely don't have the brains to be an effective teacher...or effective anything else come to that. Sure there may be exceptions who can get by on charm, but sooner or later they will get caught.
Illegal huh!! well that may be true, so what, many things are illegal in this world.. people still do them everyday, even the Educated!!
acually escpecially the educated, so those hard individuals who studied 6 years at harvard are allowed to commit illegal crimes, because they deserve to, because they went to UNI>>>????
thats not the point here...
people without degrees cheapen the ones who did obtain them, if you dont have brains etc...
well again, if I owned a company and two applicants came into my office both the same age, one went to college and other spent 4 years in the work force I would go with the man who worked, he has exeprience..
its all about experience,,I wouldnt call someone shit for brains because he didnt go to UNI....
most the richest men in the world didnt attend college!! you saying they all stupid>???
mothers and fathers dont have degrees,, right! so how do you define a good parent? the rich park avenue mum who only cares about her fashion and makeup and sends her kids to private schools, BOARDING SCHOOLS
or the poor mother from the projects who cares, loves, dresses, feeds, walks to school everyday helps with homework!!!!
MY SIMPLE POINT IS THIS!!
just because you have better qualifications, or MORE MONEY!!
does NOT EVER!!! make you a better PERSON!! NEVER!!! |
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Hotuk
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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MY SIMPLE POINT IS THIS!!
just because you have better qualifications, or MORE MONEY!!
does NOT EVER!!! make you a better PERSON!! NEVER!!! |
You're right. But my simple point is this: if you say you have a qualification you actually don't, you're a fraud and a liar. And no amount of self-serving rationalizing will overcome that.
Mr. Tesl's claims of moral rectitude would hold water if his customers listed the paper he sells under "groups and associations" on their resumes - that would be somewhat misleading but not inaccurate.
But on his website he's encouraging them to list the "certificate" under the "professional qualifications" or "education" categories, passing them off as TEFL training certificates. And that's the lie. |
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jaderedux
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:15 pm Post subject: uh oh |
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That is NOT the point here. The point is that using fake degrees is illegal. Period. Full stop. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. People using fake degrees cheapen the ones that were obtained with hard work.
I'll put it another way. If you don't have the brains to get a real degree, then you most likely don't have the brains to be an effective teacher...or effective anything else come to that. |
Yowsa boys and girls.....didn't realize I was in the company of such law and order freaks! 
I have a degree in fact 2...I came here after being in the rat race to experience something different. Do I think someone with a fake degree cheapens mine. Nope! I am just not that insecure.
Guess what jaywalking is illegal, prostitution is illegal, speeding is illegal, smoking grass is illegal, underage drinking is illegal, teaching privates is illegal. I venture to say a few of you have been involved in some "criminal" activity.
| Quote: |
| If you don't have the brains to get a real degree, then you most likely don't have the brains to be an effective teacher...or effective anything else come to that. |
I am sorry but I am amazed at such an elititist statement. Do you honestly think intelligence is measure by a piece of paper??? Pulleeeezzeee....some of the best and brightest, most innovative people in the world did not graduate from college or did poorly. If you want a list I will be happy to provide. Let's start however with Bill Gates.
Excuse me but most of us teach ENGLISH to children, many of us (not me) teach in hogwans. We are not here to teach the history, root of, or in-depth levels grammar.
I am here to help and teach intonation, pronunciation, a little culture and teach working knowledge of basic (key word basic) grammar. I teach in a Middle School the KETS teach grammar like mad....pound it in...cram it in these students head. That is great but some still can't put a sentence together in comprehensible english. I can help them with that.
Now, I would NEVER venture to teach as a primary teacher of English. My knowledge of grammar is very basic and I know that. But I can teach conversation. I can help these students overcome their fear and learn to initiate and carry on a simple conversation.
Mind you folks I have seen HORRIFIC teachers who hold that magic TEACHING DEGREE. I have seen HORRIFIC teachers with Masters Degree. I have seen great teachers with a BA in art or music or computer science. And one of the best teachers I know is working here with a fake degree. He works hard....prepares his classes meticulously ....never pontificates...never mentions pedogogy, methodology...just teaches...and teaches well. He doesn't play games in his classes and his students learn alot from him.
I am thoroughly disgusted to think anyone would think that a piece of paper makes a person smart or wise. NONE of my grandparents or parents had a degree. Gosh, guess I should be ashamed that they were so stupid. Even though all of them held great jobs..(not manual labor) and raised their families well. My paternal grandparents raised 13 children to be exact ...all of this without a degree. 6 went to college the rest did other things and outside of 2 they are all successful and not a divorce or bankruptcy. Yep what a bunch of losers.
My mother was very successful Avon rep for years. This includes very extensive bookkeeping and record keeping. She even won national awards. All of this with a GED. My father was a Purchasing manager for ConAgra...all this even though he was stupid and didn't have a degree. He taught himself how to use a computer. Took a couple of classes but his knowledge was self-taught and he built on what he learned in the Air Force. (supply manager). My mother told me after his death, that had he lived, his plan was to go to college for fun.
So lets not get too full of ourselves. One of the major problems in our society today is the lack of respect for people who simply want to work, do a good job and get paid. We all sniff and stick our noses in the air and pretend for some reason we are better than someone because we have a degree.
A while ago I took a extensive course in Quality Management. One thing I learned was to respect every persons work. And let people do things to the best of their ability. Encourage those who want to do better and help them succeed but if someone is a good ditch digger and they like being a good ditch digger (extreme example) then respect them and make them feel valuable.
I am not talking about Medical doctors or pilots what I am talking about here is teaching English in Korea so don't bother to pontificate about "do I want some doctor operating on me"....ad naseum...that is not the issue.
I don't think because I have a degree I am better than the guy who picks up my garbage or fixes my car or lays cement. Everyone has a certain intelligence. Not all of it is measured by a piece of paper. To think it is, is arrogant and snobbery on its most foul level.
Okay beat me with your lambskins now...I am ready!
Jade
Last edited by jaderedux on Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: well |
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most the richest men in the world didnt attend college!! you saying they all stupid>???
MY SIMPLE POINT IS THIS!!
just because you have better qualifications, or MORE MONEY!!
does NOT EVER!!! make you a better PERSON!! NEVER!!![/quote]
Most of the richest men in the world didn't attend college? Really? You know these people personally and know this for a fact?
I never said better qualifications or more money make you a better person. I said claiming to have a degree when you do not makes you a liar. If you have one person with good qualifications and the other with fake qualifications, then the person with good qualifications would actually be in fact a better person, because he is not a liar and con man like the second fellow |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: uh oh |
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[quote="jaderedux"]
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Do I think someone with a fake degree cheapens mine. Nope! I am just not that insecure.
Guess what jaywalking is illegal, prostitution is illegal, speeding is illegal, smoking grass is illegal, underage drinking is illegal, teaching privates is illegal. I venture to say a few of you have been involved in some "criminal" activity.
| Quote: |
| If you don't have the brains to get a real degree, then you most likely don't have the brains to be an effective teacher...or effective anything else come to that. |
I am sorry but I am amazed at such an elititist statement. Do you honestly think intelligence is measure by a piece of paper??? Pulleeeezzeee....some of the best and brightest, most innovative people in the world did not graduate from college or did poorly. If you want a list I will be happy to provide. Let's start however with Bill Gates.
Mind you folks I have seen HORRIFIC teachers who hold that magic TEACHING DEGREE. I have seen HORRIFIC teachers with Masters Degree. I have seen great teachers with a BA in art or music or computer science. And one of the best teachers I know is working here with a fake degree. He works hard....prepares his classes meticulously ....never pontificates...never mentions pedogogy, methodology...just teaches...and teaches well. He doesn't play games in his classes and his students learn alot from him.
I am thoroughly disgusted to think anyone would think that a piece of paper makes a person smart or wise. NONE of my grandparents or parents had a degree. Gosh, guess I should be ashamed that they were so stupid. Even though all of them held great jobs..(not manual labor) and raised their families well. My paternal grandparents raised 13 children to be exact ...all of this without a degree. 6 went to college the rest did other things and outside of 2 they are all successful and not a divorce or bankruptcy. Yep what a bunch of losers.
My mother was very successful Avon rep for years. This includes very extensive bookkeeping and record keeping. She even won national awards. All of this with a GED. My father was a Purchasing manager for ConAgra...all this even though he was stupid and didn't have a degree. He taught himself how to use a computer. Took a couple of classes but his knowledge was self-taught and he built on what he learned in the Air Force. (supply manager). My mother told me after his death, that had he lived, his plan was to go to college for fun.
So lets not get too full of ourselves. One of the major problems in our society today is the lack of respect for people who simply want to work, do a good job and get paid. We all sniff and stick our noses in the air and pretend for some reason we are better than someone because we have a degree.
I don't think because I have a degree I am better than the guy who picks up my garbage or fixes my car or lays cement. Everyone has a certain intelligence. Not all of it is measured by a piece of paper. To think it is, is arrogant and snobbery on its most foul level.
Okay beat me with your lambskins now...I am ready!
Jade |
Again you missed the point. I did not say that all people who don't have degrees are stupid or losers. Nowhere did I say that. What I said was "If you don't have the brains.." If you want to work in Korea, you must have a degree. To work in Korea without a degree is illegal. I don't care how good a teacher you are. If you are going to another country you should obey the laws. A lot of people come here and say "well these laws don't apply to me because (a) They (the laws) are racist
(b) I am from another country
(c) We don't do things this way in my country
(d) I speak English and they need me
(e) Any other stupid reason
Face facts. If you come here and leave your country don't think that you can pick and choose which laws you will live under. No one forced you to leave, so have the common decency to obey the laws of the country that is providing you with a living.
One more time. If you don't have a degree that doesn't make you a bad person. Please don't put words in my mouth Jade. If however you don't have a degree and claim you do in order to get a job, then you are a liar and fraud. And while lying about having a degree may not be a crime, fraud most certainly is. |
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jaderedux
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:35 pm Post subject: s'cuse me. |
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If you don't have the brains to get a real degree, then you most likely don't have the brains to be an effective teacher
| Quote: |
| ...or effective anything else come to that[ |
quote]
Hmmm...not my words kiddo....yours. OR EFFECTIVE ANYTHING ELSE.
Sorry but I didn't put words in your mouth and the meaning is pretty clear I think. If you don't have a degree you don't have the brains to be an effective anything...your words....!
Jade
[/quote] |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: s'cuse me. |
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| jaderedux wrote: |
If you don't have the brains to get a real degree, then you most likely don't have the brains to be an effective teacher
| Quote: |
| ...or effective anything else come to that[ |
quote]
Hmmm...not my words kiddo....yours. OR EFFECTIVE ANYTHING ELSE.
Sorry but I didn't put words in your mouth and the meaning is pretty clear I think. If you don't have a degree you don't have the brains to be an effective anything...your words....!
Jade
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[/quote]
Try brushing up on your reading skills. I said "If you don't have the BRAINS TO GET A DEGREE.." Not, "If you DON'T HAVE A DEGREE..." The two are not the same. See, I knew someone would jump on me about the degree thing, that's why I wrote it the way I did. One more time. If you (generic you) don't have a degree and claim you do in order to get a job, then that makes you a liar and fraud. That's what I have a problem with. Apparently though you don't. Fine. Just don't put words in my mouth. |
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jaderedux
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Try brushing up on your reading skills. I said "If you don't have the BRAINS TO GET A DEGREE.." Not, "If you DON'T HAVE A DEGREE..." The two are not the same. See, I knew someone would jump on me about the degree thing, that's why I wrote it the way I did. |
Hmmm...lets see so if you don't have the brains to get a degree and If you don't have a degree...pretty close sweetie. I am curious and I am not being sarcastic...how exactly do you differentiate between these two statements. I have read them both and both seem pretty insulting and elitest. I am not trolling here I am honestly interested. I don't agree with you but believe me I respect your opinion. It is a strong one and I respect anyone with the brains to formulate a good arguement.
That being said.... 
Lets not pretend we are all perfect law biding citizens either. I have crossed against a light and speeded and once let my Visa lapse for a couple days. I am hardly ready for interpols most wanted list. We teach English...NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. I work very hard take my job very seriously. But we have a tiny role in a very big picture. If someone didn't have a degree and was smart and worked hard they could do just as good a job in the tiny realm that we are allowed to influence.
In my previous post there was some strong lanugage but I was speaking in generalities...I don't believe that you personally are a snob or whatever. I think you might be mis-guided...  but hey the same has been said about me too.
I like a good debate and this one has turned out interesting.
Jade |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| jaderedux wrote: |
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| Try brushing up on your reading skills. I said "If you don't have the BRAINS TO GET A DEGREE.." Not, "If you DON'T HAVE A DEGREE..." The two are not the same. See, I knew someone would jump on me about the degree thing, that's why I wrote it the way I did. |
Hmmm...lets see so if you don't have the brains to get a degree and If you don't have a degree...pretty close sweetie. I am curious and I am not being sarcastic...how exactly do you differentiate between these two statements. I have read them both and both seem pretty insulting and elitest. I am not trolling here I am honestly interested. I don't agree with you but believe me I respect your opinion. It is a strong one and I respect anyone with the brains to formulate a good arguement.
That being said....
Lets not pretend we are all perfect law biding citizens either. I have crossed against a light and speeded and once let my Visa lapse for a couple days. I am hardly ready for interpols most wanted list. Jade |
Okay, let's take your first paragraph. How do I differentiate? Well if someone has no money, and cannot afford to go to college, there is one difference right there. Or if someone doesn't want to go to college and instead go to work, I have no problem. Even if someone claims to have a degree and doesn't it is still no biggie. But if someone claims to have a degree and uses that lie for financial gain, then I have a problem. If you are going to obtain a job where a degree is needed then you should have a real degree. Granted its not rocket science, but the law's the law. And in Canada just about anybody who wants to go to college can. So apart from lack of smarts or work ethic, there is basically no excuse (in today's society for not getting a degree IF IT IS REQUIRED TO HOLD DOWN A CERTAIN JOB). (Note I said "today's society)
Second paragraph. Well let's compare apples to apples shall we? Crossing against the light will get you a dressing down and maybe a small fine. Teaching without a degree is immoral (you are lying) and it will cost you a major fine and deportation. As well it is doubly criminal. It is illegal and you are commiting fraud if you do. Not to mention scamming the tax authorities (although some people might not consider that in itself criminal  )
Anyway I like a good debate as well. Here's hoping we can keep this civil.  In this new spirit I withdraw the remark about the reading skills. |
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Harpeau
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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I think, if I liar and a fraud applies to work at any company, then the best thing would be for them to be flushed out of the bushes and exposed as liars and frauds. I certainly wouldn't want an unqualified person performing open-heart surgery on me. How about you?
For me, it's a matter of INTEGRITY. The issue isn't brains, power, money, etc. , but rather being CLEAR, OPEN, and HONEST, about one's qualifications. That does not make me insecure. It only makes me value INTEGRITY.
Please don't cloud the issue.
Play hard!
Harpeau |
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