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jaderedux
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul
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 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 3:39 pm Post subject: My last, last word....really I mean it this time.. |
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| If you don't recognize the distinction between an altruistic lie and a lie that's inspired by greed, then this debate is essentially meaningless |
Yowsa!!!!
THAT HAS BEEN MY POINT ALL ALONG!....some people lie for different reasons. I refuse to paint everyone who says they have Tefl cert or degree (and perhaps doesn't) with the same brush. They are not all evil or lazy or worthless teachers. They might have monetary reasons or obligations I don't know about or like some said they might just be lazy slackers. That being said some with degrees are equally lazy, worthless and sometimes bad teachers.
Having a degree in lets say geology makes someone a "Teacher". Nope. I try not to get too high and mighty since my degree(s) have nothing to do with teaching.
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| It's hard to paint such a picture of desperation when many of these eslers are routinely getting loaded in Itaewon. |
Are you saying these are the ones without degrees? These are the ones probably with degrees......so what is your point?
Let me put this as clearly as possible.
1. I will not judge someone because they might have a fake TESL cert. I have met fully degreed folks who have done things far immoral and illegal in this country than this. I can't begin to know what the motives of every single person so I won't wholesale paint everyone with the same brush. I guess THAT'S JUST ME.
2. My main point about laws was in response to ..the idea that somehow laws are always right. They aren't and can be changed in moment making a law biding citizen into a criminal.
3. I understand I lie, you lie, we all lie. Sometimes to be nice sometimes just because we aren't nice...sometimes because we might be ashamed of something.....there are a myriad of reasons...does it make any of us evil wicked horrible people.....NOPE...it makes us human.
At this point, while I respect your opinion and the opinion of many here I do see that the debate is becoming circular. I must say I will agree that we disagree. I have no lack of respect for you and have a good idea most of you would be exactly the kind of people I like to argue and verbally scrap with....but in another venue I would say well I disagree but how about another cup of coffee or beer and move on to a different subject since none of us are going to completely agree with the other.
Have a great week.
Jade |
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Hotuk
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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Jade:
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| 1. I will not judge someone because they might have a fake TESL cert. I have met fully degreed folks who have done things far immoral and illegal in this country than this. I can't begin to know what the motives of every single person so I won't wholesale paint everyone with the same brush. I guess THAT'S JUST ME. |
I think you're great and I enjoy your posts. But let me say here that I wish you were hiring at Seoul National University. Then I could show you my Harvard PhD in Linguistics. Sure, I created it in Photoshop and Illustrator and printed it up on my bubble-jet, but you're not going to judge me for that.. I'd like to start work this August. Thanks. |
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cheem
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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Good call Hotuk. Sign me up too. My doctorate's from Yale. You may disregard my criminal record. Those sexual harassment charges are patently false. Besides you have no right judge me; you have jaywalked before haven't you? I want to start right away. I'm hungry.  |
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Rand Al Thor
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Locked in an epic struggle
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| I've got a applied linguistics PH.d from Princeton, A M.A. in general Linguistics from Yale, Can I have a job there tooo...... |
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jaderedux
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Jade ignoring obvious pokes with a sharp stick. |
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MrTESL
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Hotuk wrote: |
| ...Then I could show you my Harvard PhD in Linguistics. Sure, I created it in Photoshop and Illustrator and printed it up on my bubble-jet... |
I wouldn't mind taking a peek at that myself. But why Photoshop and Illustrator? Stick with the vectors - they'll print that much clearer. No need for bitmaps if you're outputting to paper. And forget the bubblejet, take it to a proper printer and put it on some nice midweight stock.
Either that, or leave it to the professionals. Guys like you suk and it put those of us who are serious in a bad light.
| Dr. Buck wrote: |
| It's not a debate about someone acting smart with a fake hotshot degree. It's about cojones; about having the audacity to do such a thing and being able to endure the risks; its about having the courage and cunning to cut out a better life for yourself and family. And that what threatens some of the holy roller posters here--the lack of courage to cut yourself a bigger piece of the pie, and instead playing it safe like the good boy you're mommy raised you up to be. |
I couldn't have put it better myself. |
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Hotuk
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| It's about cojones; about having the audacity to do such a thing and being able to endure the risks; |
Any murderers that we know by name, like the Sept 11th hijackers & Timothy Mcveigh, told themselves the same thing, too, I suppose.
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| Guys like you suk and it put those of us who are serious in a bad light. |
Far too much irony there for one sentence.
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| I've got a applied linguistics PH.d from Princeton, A M.A. in general Linguistics from Yale, Can I have a job there tooo...... |
Well I have a birth certificate that says "Noam Chomsky". It's made of crayon and construction paper, but hey, Jade's hiring me...  |
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MrTESL
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Hotuk wrote: |
| Any murderers that we know by name, like the Sept 11th hijackers & Timothy Mcveigh, told themselves the same thing, too, I suppose... |
... and Che Guevera, probably. And Kim Dae Jung. And Johnny Rotten.
| Hotuk wrote: |
| Far too much irony there for one sentence. |
It might be obscure, but I'm paraphrasing the orginal post, way back on page one. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| jaderedux wrote: |
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| I just have one question. Do you consider fraud and lying (purely for financial gain) to be bad? Yes or no. |
Again, so black and white. Read Victor Hugo Les Miserable (although I am sure you have) Yes....people break the law...some lie some commit fraud....is it wrong....probably. But I refuse to say everyone who has ever lied to get a job is evil. I refuse to say that every one who has possibly lied to put bread on the table or pay off a student loan as evil incarnate. I know you think it is black and white but it isn't. I am sorry it just isn't.
[Fraud...hmmm.....I assume you have a teaching degree...because if you don't then like many others we are not really teachers...we are frauds in the strictest sense of that word.
Again this is getting circular. I respect your arguments apologize if I got sarcastic. I do not agree with you but wish you no ill will. You seem like an intelligent person. I guess my view of life and people is more filled with questions than absolutes. Good luck always!
Jade |
It was a simple question. Lying SIMPLY for financial gain. NOT about putting bread on the table. Not about anything else. Simply to make money. The question itself is black and white. Nor did I say "possibly lied". Do you consider lying simply to make money bad? Very simple question. No need to drag in all these other considerations. That is not what I am asking.
As for the fraud, I'm sorry but you are wrong. The law in Korea says to get a teaching visa (to be a teacher) all you need is a degree. You are applying the standards of the West. Well, we are not teaching in the West.
(And people accuse me of being a cultural imperialist  ) |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 5:27 am Post subject: Re: My last, last word....really I mean it this time.. |
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| jaderedux wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If you don't recognize the distinction between an altruistic lie and a lie that's inspired by greed, then this debate is essentially meaningless |
Yowsa!!!!
THAT HAS BEEN MY POINT ALL ALONG!....some people lie for different reasons. .
Jade |
Jade that is EXACTLY my point. I was NOT talking about everyone here when I said "do you consider people lying for financial gain bad?" Just the ones lying to make money. |
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steroidmaximus
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: GangWon-Do
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| All I have to say about this weighty and excessively verbose topic is that Mr TESL's website was the funniest thing I read all day. Thanks! |
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Squaffy
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: All over the place
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes - I think this has run its course now. Please don't squabble anymore. |
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jaderedux
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2003 12:36 am Post subject: Homage to the Mouse One |
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I agree with the mouse!!!!
The mouse spake and so it came to pass......and peace reigned across the cold barren land.,....and every ESL teachers rejoiced as the land began to bloom again...
Thank you oh mouse one!! Thank you!
Thanks mouse it was a good heated debate...!
Jade |
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MrTESL
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2003 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| steroidmaximus wrote: |
| All I have to say about this weighty and excessively verbose topic is that Mr TESL's website was the funniest thing I read all day. Thanks! |
You're welcome, sm. I had a laugh making it.
Since this thread started, the response to my site has gone way up and I've received e-mails from around the world - in fact, that's how I knew this discussion was going on. If any of you are reading (and I get the feeling you are) it's been cool talking to you.
A large percentage of these people are asking me to forge a diploma from an existing University; if anyone else out there is thinking of this, please don't write me. This isn't what I do. It's not a moral thing, its just that I don't have the time.
And Squaffy - you start a thread, the raison d��tre of which is an attack on me and my site. When I defend myself, you get angry. When I continue, you call me a part of the female anatomy. Then you tell us all to quit "squabbling?"
line deleted by rudyflyer for inappropiate language |
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Squaffy
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: All over the place
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| I'll be having the last word here OK, and you know my opinion, I can call you all sorts of names, but the discussion is now closed, or did you miss that post? |
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