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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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 Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:37 am Post subject: Re: How you became fluent in Korean |
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| articulate_ink wrote: |
| Now for the questions. How is teaching sign language going to help you learn Korean? |
Sorry, I can't answer this question, because I thought it was self-evident that any practice in a second language is beneficial in learning that second language.
Furthermore, sign language study shares the benefits of TPR (Total Physical Response). Just as playing the violin is more effective than reading books on playing the violin, making motions while speaking a language is more effective than speaking the language without the motions.
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| First of all, what sign language are you "teaching" these kids? Korean Sign Language? Some other country's sign language? |
I thought it would be obvious from the context.
Apparently it's not.
I went back and edited.
Incidentally, why the quote marks around the word teaching?
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| Signed languages aren't "universal" any more than spoken languages are. |
Did I say they were?
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| Are you fluent in a signed language? If so, which one? |
What if I'm not?
Does that mean I can't share what I know with a group of deprived children who are unlikely to get professional instruction from anyone else?
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| Sure, getting together with kids and teaching them things is great, but I'm not so sure of the usefulness of teaching Korean youngsters ASL or British Sign Language or Auslan or whatever. |
I'm not asking your permission. I am sure of its usefulness, so I teach ASL in the English class. Just as I think KSL is good for a Korean language student, I think ASL is good for an English language student. I am following the Golden Rule.
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| There are not "motions" for each word, there are "signs." |
Okay, so maybe my terminology is wrong.
What's your point?
Is this an ad hominem attack?
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| And signs don't represent words, per se, but concepts. Sometimes the meaning of certain signs tracks closely with certain words; other times, not. Same as any other language. In ASL, "run" would be signed differently, depending on context: "run a marathon," "run for office," "runny nose," etc. "Run" has a different meaning in each case. |
Thanks, but I don't need this supercilious little sermon.
I have been very careful to use the sign for ���� only when I meant ����.
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| But the point is, signed languages ARE languages . . . |
You would have a perfect grievance if I said that signed languages aren't languages.
Why are you arranging such a long line-up of straw men?
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| . . . and if you don't already know one, trying to use this method as a means of acquiring Korean strikes me as very, very odd. |
What's your premise, that anything that is odd is wrong?
Sorry, but I beg to differ. If there is method in someone's madness, I am all for that person's madness. |
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Homer
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:41 am Post subject: |
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Ah by studying...but I know that is a crazy notion... 
Seriously, I did so by studying and practicing every chance I could.
I joined discussion groups and took classes.
I play jangi in the park with the old dudes in my neighborhood so that helped too.
Basically, took some courses to get the basic structure down and then practiced a lot. I speak korean on a daily basis with my in-laws and my wife. I also use it when I do consulting.
I read korean everyday as well (now because I enjoy iy, before for practice).
So, I think it is by being regular with it that you can hope to become fluent or close to it. |
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matthewwoodford
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Location: Location, location, location.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Maybe this is just me, but I think knowing the grammar is very important. It might work when two languages are fairly similar in structure (i.e. grammatically) but not when they are far apart like English and Korean. I'm not saying you shouldn't practice speaking - of course you should - but first you need to study.
To take a simple example, when you first find out the Korean for 'what' you might try saying '��?' when you want a Korean to repeat what they said, except that it doesn't work that way.
If you've got a great memory, I guess you can memorise all the phrases Koreans use in different situations and that's great as far as it goes but personally I don't have a great memory and I like to be able to figure out how to say things.
What I'm saying is that unless you know the grammar you're likely to end up trying to apply the rules of English grammar to Korean words and it won't work. |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| matthewwoodford wrote: |
Maybe this is just me, but I think knowing the grammar is very important. It might work when two languages are fairly similar in structure (i.e. grammatically) but not when they are far apart like English and Korean. I'm not saying you shouldn't practice speaking - of course you should - but first you need to study.
To take a simple example, when you first find out the Korean for 'what' you might try saying '��?' when you want a Korean to repeat what they said, except that it doesn't work that way.
If you've got a great memory, I guess you can memorise all the phrases Koreans use in different situations and that's great as far as it goes but personally I don't have a great memory and I like to be able to figure out how to say things.
What I'm saying is that unless you know the grammar you're likely to end up trying to apply the rules of English grammar to Korean words and it won't work. |
Grammar is an important part of language study but people get it ass-backwards. H. Douglas Brown, in Strategies for Success suggests that beginners need grammar but need practice moreand as your level gets higher you need to focus more on grammar -- the idea is to first be able to do it (communicate) and then be able to do it right (communicate accurately).
Memorizing phrases was the core of the audiolingual method and, beyond a few phrases, has been shown to be incredibly ineffective outside of a classroom environment. As I've been telling my students for years, and have recently discovered that Stephen Pinker confirms what I've been saying, there are too many different possibilities for sentences and too many possibilities for directions in conversation for anybody to memorize all the possibilities. Don't believe me? Take any book any where at random and type in any sentence of reasonable length (five words or more) into a search engine and see how many matches you get -- won't be many if indeed you get any. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:50 pm Post subject: yes |
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| I have learned grammar heavily, and it works for me. When I learn a new verb, I know how to conjuate it immediately, and I can use all tenses, combined with any verb I know. |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: yes |
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| Ilsanman wrote: |
| I have learned grammar heavily, and it works for me. When I learn a new verb, I know how to conjuate it immediately, and I can use all tenses, combined with any verb I know. |
Everybody learns differently and some (a very small some) learn well by studying grammar. |
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Son Deureo!
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Beaver, I am not sure I understand what method you actually use that involves not studying grammar. You've said that you need 10,000 hours of actual practice, so the more practice you get, the better. That part makes sense. But do you mean to tell me that you have skipped studying grammar entirely and still become fairly fluent in Korean? |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Son Deureo! wrote: |
| Beaver, I am not sure I understand what method you actually use that involves not studying grammar. You've said that you need 10,000 hours of actual practice, so the more practice you get, the better. That part makes sense. But do you mean to tell me that you have skipped studying grammar entirely and still become fairly fluent in Korean? |
10,000 hours is a combination of grammar and practice (and is only a rough indicator of hours based on the assumption that a native English speaker is learning Korean -- if a Japanese speaker is learning Korean it would take far less time because the langauges aren't nearly as distant). Think about it as any skill -- reading a guitar book for many people is a necessary part of learning to play guitar but the people who learn to play the best spend only enough time to understand what the book says and spend the greater amount of time practicing.
I study grammar but I don't dwell on it or agonize over it. Grammar is something to think about, try to understand, and to accept that you won't be able to use it naturally or easily until you're ready. The brain seems prewired to acquire grammatical forms (acquistion meaning ability to use) in a set order that all language learners seem to go through. So, if you study a particular grammar point you might do well on a discrete point test but it does not follow that you'll be able to use it in actual communicative situations.
So, to answer your question in a clear manner: yes, I study grammar and I would estimate it takes up about 5~10% of the overall time I spend studying and practicing. My level is now about intermediate-mid (according to the ACTFL scale) and as I get better in communicative situations I'll have to increase that percentage in order to move past mere communication to accurate language usage. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:08 am Post subject: Re: yes |
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| the_beaver wrote: |
| Ilsanman wrote: |
| I have learned grammar heavily, and it works for me. When I learn a new verb, I know how to conjuate it immediately, and I can use all tenses, combined with any verb I know. |
Everybody learns differently and some (a very small some) learn well by studying grammar. |
The way my brain works, I can absorb grammar very quickly but vocabulary takes a lot more time.
I know a lot of grammar but it's mostly because I pick it up quickly. |
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seoulmon
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: You're Fluent in Korean... |
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| tomato wrote: |
I've been working like a Trojan for 4 years and I still can't carry on a conversation. I estimate that I have studied for about 7000 hours.
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TOMATO you nut case! Why can't you have a conversation after 4 YEARS! That's crazy!
Several questions come to mind:
* Is it because you can't find people to talk to?
* Is your Korean listening and talking really that bad?
* You don't drink and smoke so you have problems socializing with Koreans?
* Your study techniques are scattered and your study habits are unfocused? |
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seoulmon
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
-after a bit of that I might get bored and switch to music. With Estonian this isn't really very possible as good Estonian bands are hard to find (if anyone know of some, let me know)
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Estonian choirs are quite famous and they are known for being innovative. Supposing you have a fondness for classical music this could be an interesting venue for you... |
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seoulmon
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| the_beaver wrote: |
Memorizing phrases was the core of the audiolingual method and, beyond a few phrases, has been shown to be incredibly ineffective outside of a classroom environment. |
I think this is true to an extent but learning phrases can be the core to a good study program.
But you need to make your learning creative (instead of just memorizing endless phrases or rules). Take the sentence and change it. Put the sentence through the paces. If you memorize the phrase "When was the last time you went to school," then flip it around. Replace 'went to school' with another verb. Change 'the last time' with the 'first time.' Use the phrase to practice new vocab you learned.
I agree that learning set phrases can be ineffective. But my point is, is that if you make your study creative these same set senteces can be an effective learning tool. |
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seoulmon
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| Actually, I've also noticed that when studying, state of mind is much more important than technique. Think about state of mind. Think about why impoverished people with ancient textbooks do better at learning a language when they feel they need to learn it as an escape, than an affluent person with the most up-to-date hi-tech system, who is learning it as a hobby, or to look good among his peers. |
For third world students "need" is the key to learning. I've lived in Korea almost 3 years and there has never been a time I've actually "needed" Korean. In fact, it's been a hinderance. Koreans tend to gravitate towards goofy knock kneed foreigners who need help ordering a meal at Burger King. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:13 am Post subject: Re: You're Fluent in Korean... |
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| seoulmon wrote: |
| TOMATO you nut case! Why can't you have a conversation after 4 YEARS! That's crazy! |
Probably because I've gotten too much destructive criticism.
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| * Is it because you can't find people to talk to? |
Kids, but not adults.
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| * Is your Korean listening and talking really that bad? |
I can say anything I want to, but I can't control what the other person says. If the other person asks me a question using a word which I don't know, I'm out of luck.
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| * You don't drink and smoke so you have problems socializing with Koreans? |
I answer yes to this one. I mean yes, I don't drink and smoke.
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| * Your study techniques are scattered and your study habits are unfocused? |
No way.
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| I've lived in Korea almost 3 years and there has never been a time I've actually "needed" Korean. In fact, it's been a hinderance. Koreans tend to gravitate towards goofy knock kneed foreigners who need help ordering a meal at Burger King. |
Yet you're proficient enough in Korean to throw stones at me? |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:57 am Post subject: Re: You're Fluent in Korean... |
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| seoulmon wrote: |
| TOMATO you nut case! Why can't you have a conversation after 4 YEARS! That's crazy! |
We talked about this at the beginning of the thread. It's quite possible to study a language all of your life and not be able to use it -- that's why it's so important to understand how languages can be learned and how you, as an individual, can most effectively learn a language.
There are a couple of books about learner strategies. Oxford's Language Learning Strategies goes over everything but it's designed for a teacher who knows about learner strategies to use. Much more readable (because it doesn't go into the theory) is Brown's Strategies for Success. |
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