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Dalton
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
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 Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickSiheung wrote: |
The teachers at our location did band together and came out on-top. If you only received 30% of your pay it's your own fault. There's no need to go to EFL law or any such thing. I would have suggested a tactful letter stating that you would approach the Ministry of Labor if you didn't receive full pay, but it's too late for that now. No point in causing a stink now. Just wait. You'll get your money. Perhaps you could write a letter officially requesting full payment on the 20th...? If not, say you will go to the labor board. It will work.
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You seem to be telling people to not take any action as well as saying it's there fault. I appreciate the fact that you're suggesting a course of action but you seem a bit schizo in your posts. You're clearly defending the chain while criticizing franchises and blaming teachers for not getting paid while suggesting a course of action but telling them not to do anything.
Do you have shares in this company? I can understand and sympathize with mangement being concerned about the prospects of all their teachers taking off en masse but it sounds like every woman/man for her/himself. I think EWHA people should re-read all your posts very carefully. You are just a teacher there? Why should anyone accept anything you say. Maybe the lawyer is using you. Are you smarter than he is?
When all is said and done what about next months pay? I don't have the money to pay you your monthly wage after one month but I will have the money to pay you 2 months wages within 6 weeks? I hope none you plan on running a retail business in your future.
The Lawyer needs to forget he's in Korea and issue a formal statement to those he's obligated himself to pay. The release letter should figure prominently. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:19 am Post subject: yes |
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| PatrickSiheung wrote: |
Okay, you wanna start with the name calling, huh? Shows your age. That's great.
Perhaps you didn't get any warning about your pay? If you didn't, of course it's not your fault. But what you do, or fail to do, afterward is certainly your fault... or rather, your responsibility. I'm sure many with warning did nothing but complain to their directors. Not a smart thing to do... it's like banging your head against a wall. It won't get you anywhere.
So that would be your fault. Of course if you do all the right things and don't get what you deserve... *shrug* yer screwed. But at least you tried something more intelligent than threaten to quit.
Anyway, yeah my comment was a little harsh. It wasn't aimed at everyone, though. My comment was aimed at those who just complain and do nothing else. It's easy to run to your director and say you will quit if you don't get paid. *yawn* Foreigners are a dime a dozen. They can replace you. There are better ways to get what you want. That's why I said what I said.
If all people want to do is whine and complain about getting paid less rather than actually doing something about it, yes, it's your fault. Of course if you're just suddenly paid 30% without any warning, you can't be blamed. But when you have a heads up, even though it was only a couple of days for most people, there are things you can do other than just complain to your director - who probably isn't getting paid either.
I'll say it again, complaining to your school's director won't make a lick of difference. I know our director hasn't been paid in a while.
Staying cool about the whole thing (in front of the right people) and in a professional way pointing out the contract clauses and politely threatening to contact the labor board may be a little more effective than complaining like the immature foreigner many school owners believe us to be.
Better yet, actually go to the Ministry of Labor and have them call. I'm sure that's something Ewha wouldn't ignore.
See the difference between acting like an angry employee who just complains and someone who presents a case in a professional way?
I'm not saying don't complain either. Damn, I complained the most probably. But to the higher ups, I was firm and professional and it worked. Chances are that next month I'll have to do the same thing. But you know what?? Rather than complain, this time I will just go to the Ministry of Labor and have them call. Let them deal with it while I'm typing up my letter of resignation.
Some people sound like scared little children afraid of the big bad hagwon owner. Grow some balls, look them in the eye and do what you have to do. |
No, actually EHWA paid me in full. I just get sick of apologists on here who condone Korean business practices.
What constitutes a warning? 'Sorry, we can't pay you'? 'We are a little short on cash right now'? I bet Brian Lee is never paid late.
I also agree that people should do more than just bitch, but you don't take into account some important things like
-maybe they are brand new in Korea and don't understand the system well. We can't all be uber expat geniuses like you.
-the Korean legal system is unjust at best. I could take them to court or fight them over money, and 2 months later i MIGHT get it, along with my living bills for the last 2 months, all my time going to and from the labour board building, etc etc. Is it even worth it?
Many of my friends have gone through a legal battle in Korea, and in the end, they all sai 'it's not worth it'. Unless you are dirt poor and need that money or you will starve, it is better to give it up. The legal system is designed to wait and wait and wait while the company holds the money, and the little guy starves.
In conclusion, it is never a teacher's fault for not getting paid. That was one of the most ridiculous comments I have ever heard. That's why I called you an idiot. |
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PatrickSiheung
Joined: 21 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmm just one of those things I guess. I understood my posts just fine.
I'm not defending anything. I already said, I was ticked at the school too.
I'm also not criticizing the franchises. If I remember correctly, I've only said I don't know about the franchises.
And I've never told anyone to not to anything. I said I WOULD have suggested writing a letter or contacting the Ministry of Labor, but it was too late to get payment on time anyway. I thought it was stupid to run to EFL law and bring out the lawyers already when on their site they suggest contacting the Ministry of Labor first. More often than not, a simple phone call from them with get you your money. It just surprised me everyone was freaking out so much when it was so easy to handle. There's no need to spend all this money hiring a lawyer and going to court. Don't you think Ewha would rather pay you too without all the expenses of going to court?
I just thought it was funny everyone's blowing the whistle, completely freaking out and getting ready to sue Ewha when a simple call from the Ministry of Labor would likely do it. Just seemed everyone was a little over-dramatic. Saying that is not defending the company.
And I'm certainly no expat genious. And I'm not trying to make myself out to be one. You're the one that has put so much importance in what I've said. I posted my opinion just like everyone else does on this board.
Why should anyone accept what I say? Well you could ask that from anyone that speaks in a public forum, couldn't you? I've got no answer for that because it never occured to me that EVERYONE should listen to me.
And I'm not apologizing for Korean business practices. I think they are horrible, but it saves you a whole lot of stress to just remember that we're not in the west anymore. This is so normal in Korea. Learn to deal with it.
I doubt Brian is ever paid late either. I have no argument there.
you said:
"In conclusion, it is never a teacher's fault for not getting paid. "
Again, you're taking my statement out of context. Don't know how else I can explain it to you. You've already made up your mind about me so... peace be with you or whatever... |
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Confused Canadian
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickSiheung wrote: |
| I just thought it was funny everyone's blowing the whistle, completely freaking out and getting ready to sue Ewha when a simple call from the Ministry of Labor would likely do it. Just seemed everyone was a little over-dramatic. |
When a single school in a chain pays their teachers 30% of their wages, it's cause for concern for the teachers at that particular school. However, when ALL of the schools in one of the biggest FRANCHISES in Korea pays ALL of its teachers (except one) only 30% of their wages, that in my books is acceptable grounds for "freaking out". If I still worked at Ewha, I'd be nervous. I wouldn't be sitting idly by doing nothing, but I'd be plenty stressed out over the uncertainty of my future.
Not to mention, as you have somewhat acknowledged in you posts, getting a new job in Korea is not a simple process. First, you have to get your letter of release, and at this point, there is no assurance that this will happen. Secondly, you have to find a new job. Now granted, there are a ton of jobs out there, and you could easily find a new job in a day, but most people like to check into schools a little bit, especially after being screwed over at your last job. Third, where do you live while looking for this new job? If the school is going under, or in danger of going under, they're not going to let you stay in your school-sponsored apartment if you wish to leave. Thus, you have to fork over money (out of your own pocket) to stay at a yogwan until you can sort out a new job. Though not "the end of the world", switching jobs in Korea can be a nightmare. In an earlier post, you suggested people should simply get a new job if they think their school is in danger of going under. I'm trying to point out that it's not as cut and dry as you are trying to make it.
As Ilsanman mentioned, some teachers may be
| Quote: |
| brand new in Korea and don't understand the system well |
That's exactly the case at my old school. Remember my friend that I just returned home? (The one owed over 5 million won from the end of her contract) The teacher that replaced her was faced with this dilemma on her first pay check. This is her first job in Korea. Would you have been set to call the Labor Board if your first pay check had been late? If so, you were much more prepared and informed than most that come to Korea.
Finally, you keep saying that people should've called the Labor Board at first mention of financial troubles. Well, what would've happened if everybody had done that? Do you honestly think that everyone would've been paid on time, just like you?
Confused Canadian |
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PatrickSiheung
Joined: 21 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't mean to make it sound like getting a new job was cut and dry, or easy. But I mean c'mon... people thinking it's the end of the world and getting ready to call their lawyer is a little nuts. Perhaps I'm a little too laid back about the situation, but I don't think it's time to panic yet.
As for the noobs... they should do their due diligence and learn about the labor board before coming here. If you're unprepared to handle a bad situation, you have no one to blame but yourself. Moving to a new country without a plan is just foolish, especially with all the news about ETs running into trouble here.
As for your friend, I sympathize... but without knowing the whole story I can't really comment.
I guess if everyone had called the Ministry of Labor about the partial payment it would have gotten a big reaction. It probably would have forced the Ministry to do something more than just make a phone call to Ewha. I honestly can't even imagine what would have happened if "everyone" filed a complaint. But then again, I doubt everyone would. People weren't prepared to do it this time. Rather many just complained to their powerless directors. I'm just saying there are better things to do.
Now I'm tired of discussing this. Sorry if I was harsh with my comments but I have every right to express my opinion same as you do. Let's just agree to disagree and forget it. My head hurts.
So... anyone else watching the olympics? I'm disappointed Korea didn't do better with the Judo competitions. |
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McNasty
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:19 am Post subject: |
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PatrickSiheung,
I'm not sure if you are aware or not , but a release letter must be given to an employee whether they quit or get fired. It is written in Korean law, it's not just luck of the draw. So any teachers out there worried about not getting it can contact EFL law to confirm. |
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Juggertha
Joined: 27 May 2003
Location: Anyang, Korea
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:19 am Post subject: |
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Mc, all things guaranteed in korean law.. are not guaranteed  |
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PatrickSiheung
Joined: 21 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| Ah, I wasn't aware of that. Last I heard no school was obligated to give release letters. That's good news then! Makes it much easier to find another job. |
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Confused Canadian
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| McNasty wrote: |
PatrickSiheung,
I'm not sure if you are aware or not , but a release letter must be given to an employee whether they quit or get fired. It is written in Korean law, it's not just luck of the draw. So any teachers out there worried about not getting it can contact EFL law to confirm. |
Though technically you're right, I'm gonna agree with Juggertha here, especially when it comes to release letters. Although in theory, they have to give you a release letter, that doesn't mean they will. If you read a lot of the advice EFL Guy gives, he advocates being "nice" (i.e. not doing anything too drastic) until you have your letter of release in hand. Though it should be, it's not a given.
Now, you can also go to immigration yourself, explain your situation, and attempt to get a letter of release directly from immigration. Again, not a given. It may work, it may not.
Another case of things not being so "cut-and-dry".
Confused Canadian |
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PatrickSiheung
Joined: 21 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 6:00 am Post subject: |
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*kisses his F2-1 visa*
Release what-now? |
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McNasty
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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This is getting a bit off topic but...
If you pull a midnight run and want a release letter-good luck.
If you give sufficient notice, as stated in your contract, it shouldn't be a problem.
Also, being considerate to your boss at least until the letter is signed, sealed, and in your hands is always a good idea.
Don't forget that immigration will call your school to confirm that they will be releasing you from your contract obligations.
So don't get all high and mighty with your boss until your new paperwork has been processed if you are planning on or have already signed on at a new place.
Save the bird flipping for your final day.
Now back to the nonpayment issue.
There are 2 more days till the 20th, the supposed full payment day.
Any new developments? |
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Hobophobic
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Location: Sinjeong negorie mokdong oh ga ri samgyup sal fighting
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:38 pm Post subject: 2 days.... |
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I guess the concern at my school is pretty sound. One of our teachers finishes his contract on the 20th, and has resigned in the past, put decided against doing so a third time (unlike myself). He, again not unlike myself, had to wait more than 5 weeks for the severance pay. Not a big deal if you are established at the school - but inconvient nonetheless. And this month will be the big payout...pay/severance/airfare/deposit...the works.
I personally believe he will get the cash...when is another matter.
The original issue still remains...fear of non-payment...someone put it nicely when they said why will Ewha have any more cash in 6 weeks than they do now? Again people can understand low enrollment - but to not pay a person for work completed is just plain wrong. It doesn't matter how long you've been here ( we have new teachers who remained, and one teacher who ran already) In my 3 years here no one has run the midnighter - so what is different now? The poor business practices and moves.
All the staff - teaching or front desk, director and so forth are in the same boat here - it stinks to the brink but we chose not to get hot headed or pushy until we could find out from other Ewha branches what is happening and until our fellow teacher who is set to leave gets his DUE and DESERVED pay. We shall wait for the 20th...
Cheers. |
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Wishmaster
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| The whole release letter thing is really pathetic. I mean, just the idea that you have to hold your breath to get a letter(after quitting or being fired)....really stupid. So, if I decide to quit and my hagwon boss doesn't give me a release letter, I can't get another job here until the E2 expires? That is crap. They need to stop messing around and develop a legitimate system around here with set rules regarding the employment scene. I mean, after all the complaints over the years, you would think that it would be logical to develop a system. Then again, logic does not apply here. |
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PatrickSiheung
Joined: 21 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:44 am Post subject: |
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Okay, so let's say you do NOT have a visa that allows mulitple re-entry into Korea. Does that mean that you can effectively cancel your visa yourself by leaving the country and coming back?
That point about them not being able to pay next time is a point that also came up at our school. In fact, it's less than 6 weeks. As of the 20th, it will only be about 3 weeks. I'd be pretty surprised if we go trouble-free in September. If this happens again, I'm prepared to go straight to the labor board without giving them any letter of warning first. It's BS and there are too many good jobs out there to put up with it.
I wonder... would it help your case if you ask to get the late payment in writing? This time they promised 30% on the 11th and the rest on the 20th. Do you think they'd put it in writing next time?
Otherwise, I would imagine the labor board would wait for your payment date to actually pass before taking action. I'm guessing they would say there is no breach of contract until after they fail to pay us on the 11th. |
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Dalton
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:32 am Post subject: |
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The labour board is pretty strange by all accounts on this board. I would reccommend a bunch of you contacting the Labour Board and then PMing each other to compare notes. The truth is out there. EFL Law has advice too. Take advantage of it. You can ask them for advice without retaining their services.
EFL Law
Hogwon.com
Catch 22: If you bankrupt them then they can't pay anyone. Get advice. |
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