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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bosintang wrote: |
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Anyways, back to the point, if Immigration starts authenticating degrees, big deal. Of thousands of English teachers in this country, a few *legal* teachers with fake degrees will get rooted out. I don't expect my salary to shoot up anytime soon, let's put it that way. |
It will be more than a few. I hear figures like 70% cropping up all the time. Even if we assume this figure is exaggerated, and cut it by say half that's still a lot of teachers with fake degrees. And there are a goodly number of them here.
However let's assume that only a few get caught. Others hear about it and realize the chances are slim to none. As more and more come over with fake degrees the salaries will drop not rise. If only people with real degrees came over, this salary drop would take longer to come into effect. If any old Joe Blow could come and teach here, the market would be over-supplied and we'd be teaching for a million won a month. Either that or go home. |
My guess is it's 20 to 30 percent of teachers. But I bet a WHOLE LOT of the legal ones also have fake MA's and TESL/TEFL certificates. |
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diablo3
Joined: 11 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Wouldn't be surprised if some tried to fake their masters in teaching or ESL certificates. I have a masters myself which I earned fairly and squarely. Strangely, my first hagwon owner once got angry about me and later I found out of being accused of having a fake masters degree.
Anyone had any similar experiences? |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Derrek wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bosintang wrote: |
[
Anyways, back to the point, if Immigration starts authenticating degrees, big deal. Of thousands of English teachers in this country, a few *legal* teachers with fake degrees will get rooted out. I don't expect my salary to shoot up anytime soon, let's put it that way. |
It will be more than a few. I hear figures like 70% cropping up all the time. Even if we assume this figure is exaggerated, and cut it by say half that's still a lot of teachers with fake degrees. And there are a goodly number of them here.
However let's assume that only a few get caught. Others hear about it and realize the chances are slim to none. As more and more come over with fake degrees the salaries will drop not rise. If only people with real degrees came over, this salary drop would take longer to come into effect. If any old Joe Blow could come and teach here, the market would be over-supplied and we'd be teaching for a million won a month. Either that or go home. |
My guess is it's 20 to 30 percent of teachers. But I bet a WHOLE LOT of the legal ones also have fake MA's and TESL/TEFL certificates. |
Where are you guys getting your figures? UrbanMyth? Derrek? Myself, without seeing any source, 20-30percent of teachers teaching *legally* with fake degrees sounds awfully high to me, and I would like to see an actual source. |
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| When I was recruiting and watching the resumes, I would get, maybe, 1 out of 25 resumes that would have unaccredited universities on them, based on a watchlist of schools that I had. I remember reading on the same site that I got the link to the list from, that most fakes, these days, are of the unaccredited school type that you can buy online, as opposed to having fakes done of real schools. So, that would be between 5-10%, based on what I was seeing. I can't find that degree mill watchdog site that I originally read that on, but I saved the site of unaccredited schools that the site had a link to: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| chronicpride wrote: |
| When I was recruiting and watching the resumes, I would get, maybe, 1 out of 25 resumes that would have unaccredited universities on them, based on a watchlist of schools that I had. I remember reading on the same site that I got the link to the list from, that most fakes, these days, are of the unaccredited school type that you can buy online, as opposed to having fakes done of real schools. So, that would be between 5-10%, based on what I was seeing. I can't find that degree mill watchdog site that I originally read that on, but I saved the site of unaccredited schools that the site had a link to: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf |
Interesting that Bob Jones University is on that list. |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| bosintang wrote: |
| Derrek wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bosintang wrote: |
[
Anyways, back to the point, if Immigration starts authenticating degrees, big deal. Of thousands of English teachers in this country, a few *legal* teachers with fake degrees will get rooted out. I don't expect my salary to shoot up anytime soon, let's put it that way. |
It will be more than a few. I hear figures like 70% cropping up all the time. Even if we assume this figure is exaggerated, and cut it by say half that's still a lot of teachers with fake degrees. And there are a goodly number of them here.
However let's assume that only a few get caught. Others hear about it and realize the chances are slim to none. As more and more come over with fake degrees the salaries will drop not rise. If only people with real degrees came over, this salary drop would take longer to come into effect. If any old Joe Blow could come and teach here, the market would be over-supplied and we'd be teaching for a million won a month. Either that or go home. |
My guess is it's 20 to 30 percent of teachers. But I bet a WHOLE LOT of the legal ones also have fake MA's and TESL/TEFL certificates. |
Where are you guys getting your figures? UrbanMyth? Derrek? Myself, without seeing any source, 20-30percent of teachers teaching *legally* with fake degrees sounds awfully high to me, and I would like to see an actual source. |
Just a guess from all that I hear. And I don't remember that I said it was specifically teachers here *legally* . |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| Derrek wrote: |
| bosintang wrote: |
| Derrek wrote: |
My guess is it's 20 to 30 percent of teachers. But I bet a WHOLE LOT of the legal ones also have fake MA's and TESL/TEFL certificates. |
Where are you guys getting your figures? UrbanMyth? Derrek? Myself, without seeing any source, 20-30percent of teachers teaching *legally* with fake degrees sounds awfully high to me, and I would like to see an actual source. |
Just a guess from all that I hear. And I don't remember that I said it was specifically teachers here *legally* . |
The *legally* part was more geared towards UrbanMyth who brought up the 70% figure, but anyways, my point stands. A few people here have fake degrees, but I personally doubt it's such a significant number that it will have a huge impact on the job labour market, even if it makes a good sensationalist story or two on a boring newsday. I also don't think it's the most pressing problem in Korea's ESL industry. On a conciliatory note, I suppose degree authentication is at least a step, albeit a small one, in cleaning up the industry. |
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| bosintang wrote: |
| Derrek wrote: |
| bosintang wrote: |
| Derrek wrote: |
My guess is it's 20 to 30 percent of teachers. But I bet a WHOLE LOT of the legal ones also have fake MA's and TESL/TEFL certificates. |
Where are you guys getting your figures? UrbanMyth? Derrek? Myself, without seeing any source, 20-30percent of teachers teaching *legally* with fake degrees sounds awfully high to me, and I would like to see an actual source. |
Just a guess from all that I hear. And I don't remember that I said it was specifically teachers here *legally* . |
The *legally* part was more geared towards UrbanMyth who brought up the 70% figure, but anyways, my point stands. A few people here have fake degrees, but I personally doubt it's such a significant number that it will have a huge impact on the job labour market, even if it makes a good sensationalist story or two on a boring newsday. I also don't think it's the most pressing problem in Korea's ESL industry. On a conciliatory note, I suppose degree authentication is at least a step, albeit a small one, in cleaning up the industry. |
No shit. Like having MoE do surprise visits on hogwans during class hours, and checking to see if they have the proper amount of staff that they are licensed for. Or having a government-reviewed application process for new franchisees. "You wanna buy the Kwak Yong-il name, branding, and materials for an english school? Directors must now have a minimum TOEIC score of 800 to open and operate a licensed english institute. No like-uh? Then, go open a PC bang." |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Don't worry Zed, I don't have a fake degree or visa. I'll be here forever... 
My thoughts on this? It seems to make sense on the surface, but then again so do most tweakings of the law. It depends on what they consider a recognized university to be...most hagwons only prefer to hire people from five countries anyway (with the possible exception of South Africa). I would like to see some more Scandinavian people being hired as English teachers if they want.
We've already argued about this quite a bit before. I don't mind checking for degrees if the teacher claims that they have one. If a teacher is exceptional in some other way a company should be able to hire them. Right now it is possible, just not with an E2 visa. Not that I would want an E2! Getting a letter of release and whatnot just to keep your own visa is not my idea of fun. |
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TECO
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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My guess is that there are plenty of teachers using fake documents.
I have personally met a Canadian teacher who told me that he has used a fake degree from the University of Ottawa. He also told me how he had it made up back in Ontario.
He has been teaching children for over 5 years now at the same school.
In Taiwan, the government tends to NOT verify the degrees from people who are from countries in which Taiwan has good relations with - like Canada. This is strange, though, because most of the people I've talked to who are illegal (no degree) or who use / would use a fake degree are Canadia 
The South African teacher I work with had his documents verified and had to produce the originals while I only needed a photocopy of my degree and no transcripts.
The admin lady at my school said it was because of my nationality - being Canadian - that made it unecessary for me to provide the orginal documents.
(this was for buxiban work - not university teaching).
For conversation schools, only people from some countries have their degrees verified or if they have been suspected of using fake documents.
All university teachers in Taiwan have their documents verified - no matter what country you come from.
So, I think it's possible that Korea will end up adopting a similar system.
I don't know about Japan really, other than I needed to produce my original degree for my first work permit. After that, it was just a matter of renewing my work permit.
I really don't think that Japan verifies teacher documents.
When I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if document fraud among EFL'ers was extremely high.
I went and had a look on Kaosan Road this past summer - CELTA, B.A., degrees and transcripts from reputable Canadian universities can be bought there! |
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| I also read that Taiwan's MoE does not recognize certain accreditations. Such as degrees earned through distance learning universities. Korea and Japan have no known policy issues regarding accreditation. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| bosintang wrote: |
| Derrek wrote: |
| bosintang wrote: |
| Derrek wrote: |
My guess is it's 20 to 30 percent of teachers. But I bet a WHOLE LOT of the legal ones also have fake MA's and TESL/TEFL certificates. |
Where are you guys getting your figures? UrbanMyth? Derrek? Myself, without seeing any source, 20-30percent of teachers teaching *legally* with fake degrees sounds awfully high to me, and I would like to see an actual source. |
Just a guess from all that I hear. And I don't remember that I said it was specifically teachers here *legally* . |
The *legally* part was more geared towards UrbanMyth who brought up the 70% figure, but anyways, my point stands. A few people here have fake degrees, but I personally doubt it's such a significant number that it will have a huge impact on the job labour market, even if it makes a good sensationalist story or two on a boring newsday. I also don't think it's the most pressing problem in Korea's ESL industry. On a conciliatory note, I suppose degree authentication is at least a step, albeit a small one, in cleaning up the industry. |
As I said before, that's only what I've heard on these forums. And I pointed out that this figure may be exaggerated. Like any claims made here we should take it with a grain of salt. But based on the stories I've heard and the stories I'[ve seen, I'd be willing to bet that it's at least as high as Derrek thinks. Remember one former recruiter Mr. Chronicpride pointed out that at least 5-10% of documents that he had seen were fake. Yet these were the only ones he actually caught. And those were only for schools which he had a "watchlist" for and only one recruiter's experience. How about fakes that were not on this list? How about fakes that had a real school's name on them? How about fakes that he somehow missed? And how about recruiters who handle a far greater number of teachers? It makes sense that the proportion of fakes would be higher.
70% is probably an exaggeration. But if even only 20% are working here with fake degrees and most are caught and deported (remember Immigration will allegedly be checking harder for proof of onwards departure if you come here on a tourist visa) that should help with the market and raising salaries. On the other hand if more and more fakes come here, we can likely all kiss goodbye to the days of 2 million won and more a month. Market forces and the law of supply and demand sometimes take a while to work...but in the end they always do. Remember too, most people who are desperate enough to fake a degree and come to work in a foreign land are usually desperate enough to accept a lower salary. This will also drive down prices. Even decent hakwon owners (the few that exist) will tempted to lower salaries, seeing as how their less decent counterparts are saving a nice chunk of change each month. |
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fidel
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: North Shore NZ
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| all kiss goodbye to the days of 2 million won and more a month |
The good old days? 2 million a month is peanuts, consider this. A parking attendent in the US makes on average $29000 a year and a forklift driver in NZ makes $36000. Sure they pay more tax, but I wouldn't be particulary happy making 2 mill a month. Double that with a few privates and it's a bit more respectable. |
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Zed
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Shakedown Street
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| You found a teaching job that pays 4 million and leaves you enough time to do privates? |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| Derrek wrote: |
| thorin wrote: |
| jaganath69 wrote: |
| I forsee the numbers of Quebecers dropping dramatically. |
OUI! |
I heard it was in "process."
I suppose it will be announced when it's up and running.
And why the comment about Quebec? Just curious. Are a lot of illegal teachers coming from there? |
Bit tounge in cheek, but of all the people I know here (majority of them are native French speakers) from Quebec, only one has a real degree. The rest of them have fakes.
Cheers
Jaga |
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