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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 12:35 am Post subject: |
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I agree that the teachers should be hung out to dry. The obvious deduction is that they were working on tourist visas. That's their risk and they took it. Even if a couple guys were totally duped into thinking that what they were doing was legit, you've got everyone else working around you, telling you to keep things on the down-low.
I don't agree with the writer's final assessment of the root cause as being unqualified teachers who may only have BA's and he calls for an overhaul of the elementary schools' hiring practices. Of course, that's needed, but the elementary school should be asking for business registration numbers of these corrupt recruiting agencies that are soliciting services to them, before engaging in business. That's the heart of it.
Last edited by chronicpride on Sun Dec 26, 2004 12:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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J.B. Clamence
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| I don't understand how someone can come out swinging against the teachers in this scenario without mentioning the business guys who duped them. I'm not saying that the teachers were innocent, but do you really find them more odious than the business that brought them here and ripped them off with a 60% comission, only to watch them then get arrested and deported? We need more facts about how much they knew before coming here, but if they didn't know they were doing something illegal, it's reasonable to say that they were the victims of a scam. Do you really have such little sympathy for them? |
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Daechidong Waygookin
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Location: No Longer on Dave's. Ive quit.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| J.B. Clamence wrote: |
| I don't understand how someone can come out swinging against the teachers in this scenario without mentioning the business guys who duped them. I'm not saying that the teachers were innocent, but do you really find them more odious than the business that brought them here and ripped them off with a 60% comission, only to watch them then get arrested and deported? We need more facts about how much they knew before coming here, but if they didn't know they were doing something illegal, it's reasonable to say that they were the victims of a scam. Do you really have such little sympathy for them? |
They are all equally guilty. I have less than zero sympathy for the teachers. |
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phaedrus
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: I'm comin' to get ya.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| Daechidong Waygookin wrote: |
| There is nothing gray about their criminal activities. They worked several different locations. This is illegal. Plain and simple. |
I work many different locations, and it definitely isn't illegal.
If you don't know this, then you should be fair and assume those teachers might not have know certain things, and cut them some slack. |
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Daechidong Waygookin
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Location: No Longer on Dave's. Ive quit.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| phaedrus wrote: |
| Daechidong Waygookin wrote: |
| There is nothing gray about their criminal activities. They worked several different locations. This is illegal. Plain and simple. |
I work many different locations, and it definitely isn't illegal.
If you don't know this, then you should be fair and assume those teachers might not have know certain things, and cut them some slack. |
Ofcourse I should have added "without immigration's permition". Its legal to work multiple locations with permission on your ARC. Ofcourse those teachers probably didnt even have ARCs. |
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dutchman
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: My backyard
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| chronicpride wrote: |
| The obvious deduction is that they were working on tourist visas. That's their risk and they took it. |
Why is that the obvious deduction? If it were so, why would the Koreans have to bother:
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| forging documents that made it seem they would be employed at a ��phantom�� English institute they had set up |
? |
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J.B. Clamence
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| dutchman wrote: |
| chronicpride wrote: |
| The obvious deduction is that they were working on tourist visas. That's their risk and they took it. |
Why is that the obvious deduction? If it were so, why would the Koreans have to bother:
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| forging documents that made it seem they would be employed at a ��phantom�� English institute they had set up |
? |
Basically there are a lot of false assumptions being made here.
Upon reading the article, it sounds to me like they did indeed have proper visa, which were (most probably without their knowledge) in the name of some dummy school (which means they probably got ARCs, too). So they arrived with their visa and instructed to teach different classes at different schools without additional permission. It would be very easy to go along with this without any realization that it is illegal, because there are indeed jobs exactly like this in many other countries, including Japan. If you'd never been to Korea before, you simply would not know unless they told you. |
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Daechidong Waygookin
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Location: No Longer on Dave's. Ive quit.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| J.B. Clamence wrote: |
| dutchman wrote: |
| chronicpride wrote: |
| The obvious deduction is that they were working on tourist visas. That's their risk and they took it. |
Why is that the obvious deduction? If it were so, why would the Koreans have to bother:
| Quote: |
| forging documents that made it seem they would be employed at a ��phantom�� English institute they had set up |
? |
Basically there are a lot of false assumptions being made here.
Upon reading the article, it sounds to me like they did indeed have proper visa, which were (most probably without their knowledge) in the name of some dummy school (which means they probably got ARCs, too). So they arrived with their visa and instructed to teach different classes at different schools without additional permission. It would be very easy to go along with this without any realization that it is illegal, because there are indeed jobs exactly like this in many other countries, including Japan. If you'd never been to Korea before, you simply would not know unless they told you. |
OR unless you took the time and care to find out for yourself. Take 1 hour at a PC bang and check it out. Ignorance is no excuse. |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| I have no idea why Daechidong Waegookin & others have such a hate on for these foreign teachers. My reading of the original story has them coming in on valid visas & being farmed out to public schools, & to a newcomer, honestly, wouldnt a public school position seem on the up & up? The organizers pulling their extortionist scam, yeh, penalize them big time. But the duped newbies deserve some slack, & sympathy. I'd guess they thought they'd lined up legitimate, exciting, scary overseas jobs & suddenly they get the carpet pulled from under them. Fine them like criminals too? Way harsh & unnecessary. |
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dutchman
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: My backyard
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| Daechidong Waygookin wrote: |
OR unless you took the time and care to find out for yourself. Take 1 hour at a PC bang and check it out. Ignorance is no excuse. |
Maybe the E-2 visa stamp in the passport should come with a warning like:
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| " EMPLOYEE BEWARE! Do not trust your sponsor. A majority of hagwon owners are crooks and will take advantage of you in any way possible. It is your responsibility to determine whether you are working legally or not. " |
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J.B. Clamence
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| Daechidong Waygookin wrote: |
| OR unless you took the time and care to find out for yourself. Take 1 hour at a PC bang and check it out. Ignorance is no excuse. |
Are you saying that when you signed your first contract to come and work in Korea, you checked the internet to make sure that every single item in your contract was within the law? "They're only paying me one month of severance, is that legal? They expect me to work after 5pm, is that legal? They want me to teach children younger than 8, is that legal?" Did you really check everything? |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| Daechidong Waygookin wrote: |
Mr.Urban myth gets it. We expect people back home to follow the law. I think 99% of the foreigners who come here have zero respect for the laws in this country and treat the whole thing as one big joke. Breaking laws on a whim, or by simply failing to get informed. Thats no excuse. These teachers should have gotten educated about employment laws, and should have obeyed them. Now its time to pay the piper. I hope EVERYONE inviloved gets the maximum fines and penalties. |
Out of curiousity, what is your position on illegal workers in the United States or Canada, or most developed countries for that matter? If a Korean University student gets busted "illegally" washing dishes in a back-alley restaurant for a few bucks on the side, should they be deported from Canada with a 10-year ban?
What rules these teachers broke -- if any -- are technical rules, not criminal rules -- and I will point out that they were just as qualified to teach as you, me, or anyone else here on an E2 visa. Assuming they broke rules, they should be fined accordingly and given an exit order, but slapping a 10-year ban on them would be ridiculously harsh. |
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kokopelli2
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Location: Anyang, South Korea, the World, the Universe
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
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| This led, in the words of the police, to a viscous circle where the teachers were unhappy and class performance suffered. |
...just as an aside, I know what a vicious circle is, but what exactly is a "viscous" circle?
It sounds like something you leave on the toilet seat if you don't sit down properly!  |
Good on you! This topic needed some comic relief.  |
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kokopelli2
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Location: Anyang, South Korea, the World, the Universe
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| schwa wrote: |
| I have no idea why Daechidong Waegookin & others have such a hate on for these foreign teachers. My reading of the original story has them coming in on valid visas & being farmed out to public schools, & to a newcomer, honestly, wouldnt a public school position seem on the up & up? The organizers pulling their extortionist scam, yeh, penalize them big time. But the duped newbies deserve some slack, & sympathy. I'd guess they thought they'd lined up legitimate, exciting, scary overseas jobs & suddenly they get the carpet pulled from under them. Fine them like criminals too? Way harsh & unnecessary. |
I agree. But I think it is a matter of simple logic rather than sympathy. As a recruited newbie myself, it would be an absolute nightmare to find myself in such a situation. I mean, it seems to me that the recruitment situation seemed as believable [if not more so] as any recruitment situation--given that recruitment always seems, to me anyway, a little on the doubtful side.  The people who created the ruse obviously had a lot staked in their venture. Their approach likely had every appearance of legitimacy. These unlucky teachers were probably shown much care when brought over to Korea. This scam had to be near perfection to fool so many, especially while newbies are prone to asking so many questions. In my experience anyway, question everything. I myself, got so many varied answers, finding yes, that the legal concerns I asked about were always spouted off the top of someones head. I didn't see any manuals consulted. The alternative most of the time is to try to find a written English language resource. I suppose questions vary from one's experience and understanding, coming from the point of view of a newbie, I thought when I came here that I had done my homework. It is impossible to know, when coming to a new culture what all foreseeable questions might be, and how to get the answers. So, with all due respect to those who think it is possible to be prepared, I don't believe that these people can be dealt all this blame. Yes, though it is every person's responsiblity to look after number one, we are all exposed to various extremes of machination all the time. And we are easily seduced. Who are we to think we actually have much control? |
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weatherman
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| Does anybody know if this has made the English language press in Korea? Looking around so far and I haven't seen it in print. |
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