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Sunday night news show on Illegal ESL teachers
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inkoreaforgood



Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Location: Inchon

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nateyb wrote:
there have been some other threads about contracts and possible backlash...

maybe I'm just being pessimistic...


Yeah.

I think we'll see SOME negative stuff for a bit, but in a couple of months, it'll be all gone and forgotten. Why? Something new will come along and divert the public's attention. Wink
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chronicpride



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the only people that have to worry would be the guys who were skating on very thin ice to begin with, and the director is trying to find a way to get rid of them. Be it a bogus degree, or an accusation of abusing students. Right about now, I think some directors might see this as a window of opportunity to get things done.

But for the most part, directors will go on caring about business. And they don't like changing teachers too much, because parents will complain. Furthermore, a director canning a teacher right now, may show some signs of accountability, but at the same time, the parents may question the credibility and hiring practices of the school, and pull students out and move them to the hagwon across the street, where there is no teacher turnover or instability, because that director has chosen to sit on his hands. Plus, adding to all that is the cost of the headache of looking for a new teacher, the ensuing recruitment fee and airfare.

For the above reasons, I don't see many directors doing much, and they will much prefer to ride it out, tell any concerned parents that their teachers are solid, and maybe look into the classroom windows a little more often. That's about it.

If you're in a situation that's relatively healthy, I wouldn't worry about it. But if your director is a nutjob or if the teacher is a nutjob, and there is a lot of friction there, then I might worry some.
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase



Joined: 04 Nov 2003

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Badmojo wrote:
Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote:

In fact, your self-righteous reaction to Zen's more balanced post could well have the opposite effect intended. If you are trying to sell yourself as a culturally adjusted expat, many here would avoid taking the same path.


Zen's problem?

Let me see if I have it right.

Zen's words, "Running away from a problem is not very far from just sitting there and whining about it."

Badmojo's response, "Whining about a problem is exactly the same as just sitting there and whining about it."

And doing nothing about it, I might add.

I'm not the one whining about our portrayal in the media. I'm not the one condemning this country. I'm not the one up in arms.

Well-balanced? I'd say it's way off kilter pal.



Please note that I said "more balanced", as in "more balanced than yours".

Also, the particular Zenpickle post you responded to was not particularly emotive or condemning of Korea. On the contrary, he made it clear that the more blatent, persistent whiners should be told to leave. Yes, that's the big bad "scientifically judging by degrees rather than absolutes" concept again. Do you find such evenly-balanced comments too decedantly democratic and wishy-washy?

And BTW, if we are not important, then seniority and veteran status within Korea would mean approximately 21.3% of bugger all - totally undermining any poster's "expert authority" on this board. Does that disturb you?
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panthermodern



Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Taxronto

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EnforCorp was a B.S. company which would force Foreign Teachers to complete contracts by various means including intimidation.

EnforCorp was featured in a story in the Seoul Classified about a year ago.

It (EnforCorp) was a hoax by all accounts.

I personally feel that the disdain for Foreign Teachers is a very complicated issue.

It is a Fad in the case that it is once again popular to express it publicly, but, like many other fads these feelings are not new but an old fad that has been dragged out from the back of the closet.

Hating Foreign teachers (or just foreigners) is not new.
Openly expressing it is the fad, or at least fashionable.

Korea is all about fashion.

As for "why":

Aside for the usual xenophobia associated to all foreigners, but, regarding specifically foreign language instructors.

The following factors must be taken into account.

- The Korean Gov't sets rules and regulations which discourage effective and professional teachers

- The Korean market is unwilling to bear the cost of professional and effective teachers and settles for unexperienced and untrained instructors. I personally was one of these people as are the vasy majority of people who teach here, wether they admit it or not,

Thus ...

- Many Korean Hakwons will hire anyone.

- Many Korean Hakwons have no respect for their foreign staff.

Misconceptions:

- Many parents believe that the Foreign teachers are making the lion's share of profits from tuitions.

- Foreigners are often used as a scapegoat for the general disdain for the Hakwonization of Korea.

Realities:

- Some Koreans have very low opinions about hakwon owners and the hakwon system and by association view foreigners as also part of this problem.

- Some Hakwons owners blame foreign teachers for every complaint and loss of student and parents listen and believe them.

-Some University instructors have no right or reason to claim themselves as "Professors".

-Some university student develop very negative opinions of foreign teachers.

-Some Foreigners do not follow their contracts in good faith.

And ...

The ugliest truth ...

-IMO: One of the greatest threats and barriers to Foreigner Teachers being ever able to be taken seriously in Korea are the actions and opinions of other Foreign Teachers.

We in many cases are our own worse enemy.


We have all worked with people who should not be here for one or more of a large number of reasons.

In my opinion, some (not all, not many) foreigners "check their morality" at the airport and behave in a less then reputable manner.

I have always stated and been warry of the fact that the actions of a few will taint and cause all foreign teachers to be seen in the same light.

To summarize: There has been a long time underlying "distaste" for foreign teachers in Korea but the open media attention and public out cry is a reoccuring "fashion".

I guess fad is the wrong word.

History is a factor:

This is not a sudden phenomia but rather a long building attitude.

Your and my stay in Korea does not exist in a vaccum and the actions of teachers in the past effect the attitude towards teachers in the present.

A "Bad" teacher in the past can and would taint the attitudes of people today.

Korea has changed a great deal, and I have seen great changes in the EFL industry over the last 8 years.

In my opinion, things in the EFL industry 8 years ago were a lot worse in all areas, including the quality of teachers.

Working conditons, housing, hours, etc. have gotten better and the level of the teachers coming to Korea has also improved. The number of illegal teachers without a legitimate university degree has drastically been reduced.

(edit for clarity)

A 20 year old university student, eight years ago, is now a 28 year old probibable parent and their experiences with foreigners as students effect their views as adults.

(edit for clarity)

I think the above is a great deal of the problem.

The pre-IMF EFL era in Korea was very different from today.


(sorry I cleaned it up a little I was at work at the time of the original posting)


Last edited by panthermodern on Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:08 am; edited 2 times in total
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Tiberious aka Sparkles



Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

panthermodern wrote:
EnforCorp was a B.S. company which would force Foreign Teachers to complete contracts by various means including intimidation.

EnforCorp was featured in a story in the Seoul Classified about a year ago.

It (EnforCorp) was a hoax by all accounts.

I personally feel that the disdain for Foreign Teachers is a very complicated issue.

It is a Fad in the case that it is once again popular to express it publicly, but, like many other fads these feelings are not new but an old fad that has been dragged out from the back of the closet.

Hating Foreign teachers (or just foreigners) is not new.
Openly expressing it is the fad, or at least fashionable.

Korea is all about fashion.

As for "why":

Aside for the usual xenophobia associated to all foreigners, but, regarding specifically foreign language instructors.

The following factors must be taken into account.

- The Korean Gov't sets rules and regulations which discourage effective and professional teachers

- The Korean market is unwilling to bear the cost of professional and effective teachers and settles for unexperienced and untrained instructors. I personally was one of these people as are the vasy majority of people who teach here, wether they admit it or not,

Thus ...

- Many Korean Hakwons will hire anyone.

- Many Korean Hakwons have no respect for their foreign staff.

Misconceptions:

- Many parents believe that the Foreign teachers are making the lion's share of profits from tuitions.

- Foreigners are often used as a scapegoat for the general disdain for the Hakwonization of Korea.

Realities:

- Some Koreans have very low opinions about hakwon owners and the hakwon system and by association view foreigners as also part of this problem.

- Some Hakwons owners blame foreign teachers for every complaint and loss of student and parents listen and believe them.

-Some University instructors have no right or reason to claim themselves as "Professors".

-Some university student develop very negative opinions of foreign teachers.

-Some Foreigners do not follow their contracts in good faith.

And ...

The ugliest truth ...

-IMO: One of the greatest threats and barriers to Foreigner Teachers being ever able to be taken seriously in Korea are the actions and opinions of other Foreign Teachers.

We in many cases are our own worse enemy.


We have all worked with people who should not be here for one or more of a large number of reasons.

In my opinion, some (not all, not many) foreigners "check their morality" at the airport and behave in a less then reputable manner.

I have always stated and been warry of the fact that the actions of a few will taint and cause all foreign teachers to be seen in the same light.

To summarize: There has been a long time underlying "distaste" for foreign teachers in Korea but the open media attention and public out cry is a reoccuring "fashion".

I guess fad is the wrong word.

History is a factor:

This is not a sudden phenomia but rather a long building attitude.

Your and my stay in Korea does not exist in a vaccum and the actions of teachers in the past effect the attitude towards teachers in the present.

A "Bad" teacher in the past can and would taint the attitudes of people today.

Korea has changed a great deal, and I have seen great changes in the EFL industry over the last 8 years. 8 years ago in my opinion things were a lot worse in all areas, including the quality of teachers.

A 20 year old university student, eight years ago, is now a 28 year old probibable parent and their experieces.

I think this is also a great deal of the problem.

The pre-IMF EFL era in Korea was very different from today.


I fed this post into the Spark-O-Meter, and it checks out with a whopping 93.9 accuracy-rating -- a personal best for one Mr. Panther Modem.

Sparkles*_*
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JongnoGuru



Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found Panther's post informative and a benefit to my understanding of things, too, Sparkles.

The one place where he lost me was here:
panthermodern wrote:

Korea has changed a great deal, and I have seen great changes in the EFL industry over the last 8 years. 8 years ago in my opinion things were a lot worse in all areas, including the quality of teachers.

A 20 year old university student, eight years ago, is now a 28 year old probibable parent and their experieces.

I think this is also a great deal of the problem.


Confused
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panthermodern



Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Taxronto

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A 20 year old university student, eight years ago, is now a 28 year old probibable parent and their experiences with foreigners as students effect their views as adults.


Editted to complete my damn sentence.

Quote:
I fed this post into the Spark-O-Meter, and it checks out with a whopping 93.9 accuracy-rating -- a personal best for one Mr. Panther Modem.


How did I lose 6.1 points ?

that's panthermodern B.T.W. the phantom of the hakwon ...
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JongnoGuru



Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tiberious wrote:
Mr. Panther Modem.


panthermodern wrote:
that's panthermodern B.T.W. the phantom of the hakwon ...


It's funny how you can misread posters' names for quite a while and then one day, "Oh, that's what it is!" Surprised

Like Kimcheeking. I always used to read that as Kimcheeking and couldn't figure out what "Kim" was "cheeking" about... Confused
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ChooChooPongPong



Joined: 15 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in japan and taiwan (and china), does this problem also exist, and to the same extent? how does it compare?

in my experiences, when in japan, the teachers there seemed more on the ball, and japan doesnt make it so easy to go.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChooChooPongPong wrote:
in japan and taiwan (and china), does this problem also exist, and to the same extent? how does it compare?

in my experiences, when in japan, the teachers there seemed more on the ball, and japan doesnt make it so easy to go.


In Japan you OWN your work visa...as opposed to here where the school does. No idea about the other two, though I should think China (being a communist country) probably lets the school control your visa.
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babtangee



Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Location: OMG! Charlie has me surrounded!

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JongnoGuru wrote:
panthermodern wrote:
Looks like it is good time for EnforCorp to make a big comeback.

The MBC story is just this years' anti-foreigner sentiment.

This foreign teaching hating thing is not new, but a re-emerging fad, kind of like bell bottoms.



...let's assume you are correct that this is not a distinct and justifiable backlash against bad ESL teachers and an industry that has failed to police itself. So then, what exactly do you think is the point of this foreign teacher-hating "fad"? What interests of the Koreans are being served here? How is directing the national ire against ESL teachers helping to advance those interests?

Could it be that Koreans simply get a warm, fuzzy feeling from whipping up free-floating hate-ons against random groups of foreigners in their midst?

When it comes to lathering up the masses against Japan over Dokdo or China over Goguryo, those debates tap centuries-old wellsprings of bitter history, antagonism and shame. There will be protests in front of embassies, there will be documentary after documentary on TV... but (I'm not Japanese or Chinese, so I can't be sure) it doesn't seem to get so personal, so "in your face" as this.

ESL teachers?? There is no great store of ignominies handed down over the ages, no tearful tales from defiled grandmothers, no bitter military defeats.... You're mostly young guys & girls, you've only been here in any real numbers for a few years, and you're not even all from the same country!

So, what's gotten into them?! Why are they so over-the-top about this?

I have my own opinions, Panther, but I'd like to hear your read on this phenomenon first if I might.


It's a simple case of a repressive culture locating a minority to cast blame upon for its own social flaws. Individuals do it. Societies ALWAYS do it. Just like Australia and "illegal immigrants" (formerly known as refugees). The US and the blacks. Germany and the Jews. France and the Russians. It's good for government - takes the heat of them for social problems, gives them a physical entity they can either appear to be fighting or channel public discontent toward. It's good for the media - taps inter cultural insecurities and offers future relief to the viewer. It's good for the indidividual - gives him a target toward which he can direct blame for the social disfunction of his time. It's an act of repression through displacement - displacement of blame for our social problems. Pretty much every culture has done it, throughout all time. Arguably the most civilised societies were the ones that blamed it on unseens gods - at least they didn't have any pogroms in retaliation against the Jews' affect on Russian weather.

I say the Koreans should burn all ESL teachers at the stake. Then Korea will be the most economically stable, militarily secure nation in the world. Why doesn't anyone else see this?
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chronicpride



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What he said.
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Pyongshin Sangja



Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jong noguru, I h ave noi dea w hat youaretal king ab o ut.
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