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gypsyfish
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Much better explanation than mine. Thanks for the site! |
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Pyongshin Sangja
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
% probability before speaker speaks of event happening
structure used for example
0% will no plan Don't get up. I'll answer the phone.
70% going to intention We're going to watch TV tonight.
90% present continuous plan I'm taking my exam in June.
99.999% present simple schedule My plane takes off at 6.00am tomorrow. |
Say what? I will answer the phone. I will watch TV tonight. I will take my exam in June. My plane will take off at 6:00 am tomorrow.
These all have exactly the same meaning as the sentences above. Will and going to are interchangeable. What is this prediction nonsense? Who are you, Raveen? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
But if my student wants to use it as 'he receives a life sentence'.. can you think of any time when it would be used in a sentence in this way? I would think realistically it would have to be either past or future.
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Yes, I can. Sometimes on the telly, there's some documentary about some famous bloke or what have you. And as the narrater recounts said famous bloke's life story, he employs the present tense.
So, for example.
Joe Blogg is born in the East End of London in 1972 to a prostitute and a petty criminal. When he is ten years old his parents divorce, and he goes to live with his granny in her 2 bedroomed terraced house ... blah blah etc etc ... He is caught in 2002, and after a lengthy trial, he is finally found guilty of John Doe's murder. He receives a life sentence with no chance of parole. Two years later, he is found buggered to death in his cell.
I'm too bloody lazy to read the rest of this thread, so apologies if someone else has already explained this. |
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gypsyfish
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| Pyongshin Sangja wrote: |
| Quote: |
% probability before speaker speaks of event happening
structure used for example
0% will no plan Don't get up. I'll answer the phone.
70% going to intention We're going to watch TV tonight.
90% present continuous plan I'm taking my exam in June.
99.999% present simple schedule My plane takes off at 6.00am tomorrow. |
Say what? I will answer the phone. I will watch TV tonight. I will take my exam in June. My plane will take off at 6:00 am tomorrow.
These all have exactly the same meaning as the sentences above. Will and going to are interchangeable. What is this prediction nonsense? Who are you, Raveen? |
From Teaching Tenses by Rosemary Aitken - (I've paraphrased and truncated her explanations.)
Meaning and Function of going to:
A. Indicating a general plan or intention
B. Prediction based on present concrete evidence
C. Intention where the plan is formed in the immediate past and is now insisted on
Meaning and Function of Will/Shall:
A. Volunteering and instant decision (action decided at the moment of speech & no previous plan)
B. Prediction (when made based on judgement, knowledge, or guesswork)
C. Expressing determination
D. Expressing commitment
E. Logical deduction
F. Capability/Potential (of an inanimate object)
G. Persistance
In your examples, will can be used, but the meaning is different from be going to, or present continous (which I don't feel like writing about). Saying it's not different doesn't make it true, no matter how many people say it.
The irony is I should be happy that there are teachers who don't care to learn what they put out in class because their should errors make me, and other teachers who know what they are talking about, look good. But this is Korea and many Koreans put us all in the same basket. The only reason I care whether it's taught correctly is because every poor teacher who doesn't give a crap that they are teaching something wrong makes me look bad. I know the Desiderata says we shouldn't compare ourselves to others, but I doubt Max Ehrmann lived in Korea.
I'm not holding myself up as a paragon of grammar. I often have to go to grammar books to learn or make sure I understand what I'm talking about.
Some books that I find helpful are:
Teaching Tenses - R Aitken
How English Works - M Swan & C Walker
Practical English Usage - M Swan
Grammar for English Language Teachers: With Exercises and a Key - M Parrott
There are others. I suggest that teachers find the book that they get the most out of and buy it. The website matthewwoodford posted earlier seems to be easy to understand, too. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Joe Blogg is born in the East End of London in 1972 to a prostitute and a petty criminal. When he is ten years old his parents divorce, and he goes to live with his granny in her 2 bedroomed terraced house ... blah blah etc etc ... He is caught in 2002, and after a lengthy trial, he is finally found guilty of John Doe's murder. He receives a life sentence with no chance of parole. Two years later, he is found buggered to death in his cell.
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Isn't this called the historical present? It's used in newspaper headlines and stories to give an immediate feeling. This rabbit comes into the bar and sits down...
GOING TO/WILL
A British co-worker once went on a tirade claiming they are not interchangeable. This may be one of those differences between British English and the rest of us.
As far as I'm concerned, they are 100% the same and I use them that way. For one thing, if I say "It will rain tomorrow" there is no 'intention' or 'plan' on my part--or anyone else. On this point at least, I ain't gonna pay no attention to what no damn grammarian says. |
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Kimchieluver
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 7:13 am Post subject: |
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I don't think the kid is going to understand any of the explanationsoffered here. Maybe via a KT, but otherwise trying to explain it to him/her is going to be useless.
Why is this still a thread? |
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gypsyfish
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
Joe Blogg is born in the East End of London in 1972 to a prostitute and a petty criminal. When he is ten years old his parents divorce, and he goes to live with his granny in her 2 bedroomed terraced house ... blah blah etc etc ... He is caught in 2002, and after a lengthy trial, he is finally found guilty of John Doe's murder. He receives a life sentence with no chance of parole. Two years later, he is found buggered to death in his cell.
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Isn't this called the historical present? It's used in newspaper headlines and stories to give an immediate feeling. This rabbit comes into the bar and sits down...
GOING TO/WILL
A British co-worker once went on a tirade claiming they are not interchangeable. This may be one of those differences between British English and the rest of us.
As far as I'm concerned, they are 100% the same and I use them that way. For one thing, if I say "It will rain tomorrow" there is no 'intention' or 'plan' on my part--or anyone else. On this point at least, I ain't gonna pay no attention to what no damn grammarian says. |
I'm an American.
'It will rain tomorrow' is a deduction.
You are wrong. |
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Pyongshin Sangja
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| The irony is I should be happy that there are teachers who don't care to learn what they put out in class because their should errors make me, and other teachers who know what they are talking about, look good. But this is Korea and many Koreans put us all in the same basket. The only reason I care whether it's taught correctly is because every poor teacher who doesn't give a crap that they are teaching something wrong makes me look bad. I know the Desiderata says we shouldn't compare ourselves to others, but I doubt Max Ehrmann lived in Korea. |
I still don't see the difference. Well, sorta.
| Quote: |
From Teaching Tenses by Rosemary Aitken - (I've paraphrased and truncated her explanations.)
Meaning and Function of going to:
A. Indicating a general plan or intention (Ok, you're right.)
B. Prediction based on present concrete evidence (No, I don't see the difference in types of prediction. Evidence is evidence, it can be concrete or guessed at. You can still use both going to and will.)
C. Intention where the plan is formed in the immediate past and is now insisted on (No, I still don't see it. Will would be useful here.)
Meaning and Function of Will/Shall:
A. Volunteering and instant decision (action decided at the moment of speech & no previous plan) (Ok, you're right.)
B. Prediction (when made based on judgement, knowledge, or guesswork) (No, as I said, I don't see the difference.)
C. Expressing determination (Going to works just fine.)
D. Expressing commitment (Going to works fine, this isn't German.)
E. Logical deduction (A deduction isn't a prediction based on concrete evidence?)
F. Capability/Potential (of an inanimate object) ( The tree will fall. The tree is going to fall. Same thing.)
G. Persistance (He will continue to argue. He is going to continue to argue. Depends on the situation. You're mostly right.) |
I don't find these explanations that useful. I'm going to answer the phone. I will answer the phone. Same damn thing. Bear in mind that things that are published are not inherently valuable. People have to justify their jobs somehow, I suppose. As for not caring about what I teach, I care enough to keep this thread going. You don't have to get so uppity just because you read some damn books. |
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