Korean Job Discussion Forums

[poof]

Finally, my registration to this board was successful!! Hooray!! Welcome y'all!!!

So...my cause for registering has in sorts been provoked by the urge to do something about the union issue, dismayed that it just remains an eternal talking shop on these and such other forums.

Under realization that there is not enough will power - as well as some very sound logistical reasons, admittedly - on behalf of the teaching community here to fight for their rights to create a union, I would like to invite tender to form something along the lines of an 'English Teachers in Korea Association' (Hmm, acronym sounds too much like 'ETIK', so can't have that title...maybe someone can come up with something else? - sensible ones please )

I'm convinced that by getting together the supposedly intelligent people we are - well, we all possess legit university major certificates, right?? - we can perhaps form a core group that could get together from time to time and come up with strategies about how we can effect change. I'm thinking along the idea of: what do we want to change, how we can press to achieve this, how we can use the support of the teaching community to back us up (petitions, gaining wider media attention at home and abroad, lobbying to the key figures etc - Korean speaking foreigners we also need!!!!) Of course this is going to take some time, but why not start the ball rolling? Although I realise the formality of the Korean 'system', I'm also a firm believer that we can at least try to do something, and I do know for a fact that not all Koreans are working against us.

I know that there are many positive experiences here in Korea, but there are also too many horror stories, and I feel that for example, the hogwanization of many universities are an indicator that Korean employers feel more and more able to abuse teachers yet further because they know that currently teachers will do little to fight back, other than perhaps just through the Midnight Run. I think it is a disgrace in this day and age to have a supposedly advanced nation setting up so many scams for often quality teachers. I have 6 years teaching experience in Asia, and Korea is pretty shocking by comparison.

Of course I can do my bit and just write a few letters to relevant people here and there, but don't you just think it'd be great to have the backing of the rest of the teaching community in Korea?

Already before I was able to register for Dave's, I had started a thread on the EFL-LAW site. I will paste it below. Essentially, we were not getting enough exposure on that site.

I invite anyone who is genuinely enthusiastic about the cause to make suggestions below. Currently, 2 bright ideas we seem to have is to create one contract for all, and to axe the Letter of Release. If there seems to be individuals who have really constructive ideas, maybe they are the ones that can form the core group of our organization. First we need to see what people come up with, then perhaps collect a database of teachers' contact mails or something like that.

Here goes! We owe it to ourselves not to just sit back because we are just passing through or are content with our piece!!!!!

[poof]

Here is the thread from EFL LAW...

Sorry, this is not the correct forum, but for some reason I cannot enter the other forums to post this, and I'm anxious to add this whilst my fingers are still itching at the keyboard...

I want to add a note here about being sorry I missed the ESL conference in Busan. I'm saving my money for my visa run to Japan, so couldn't afford to travel down to Busan for this one.
I really wanted to know what the latest was about the talk of a union here in Korea. I know it has been discussed many times on various forums, but I'm disdained by the 'Oh, it'll never work' attitude of many, and from the oldtimers: 'Well, I've found my niche and have no cause to stir up grudges', etc.... That's really a sorry state of affairs when supposedly smart Westerners are in effect indifferent to doing nothing, and yet they continue to fall again and again for all these scams listed on all these forums. I commended those sub-pacific workers for taking the initiative to apply for rights to found their own union.

The one crucial - and in fact easiest in my view, with good PR and Korean language ability - step that can be made is to form a link with the governmental department that presides over foreign labour, and to work from there to establish a recognised set of rights that fits employers and employees alike. It doesn't need to be about disgruntled foreigners striking and generating emnity with employers. We need our own Velvet Revolution. I'm quite happy (and even, dare I say, 'excited'...) to call now for those who are genuinely serious about a Union, and are prepared to at least give things a try - there's really little to lose, and in fact you could be part of history and go through a real learning curve through this process - to list their contact e-mails in this thread, and LET'S GET OUR HEADS TOGETHER!!! NO MORE TALKING SHOP PLEASE!!!! DO IT NOW!!

Posters ready to shun this idea - don't even think about posting!

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poof
Member


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 12

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 12:16 pm Post subject: addition...

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Now, I've just read the posting on Dave's about the summary of the EFL Law Conference... Doesn't sound encouraging about the 'Union'. But this is what I meant by not presenting the image of banner waving Caucasian/Afro maniacs to nervous immigration guys etc.
We don't even need to technically name ourselves a 'union'. Main thing is forming alliances and networking with those who have ears and make actual decisions that count for us foreign workers. As anyone who knows, Koreans do not do things upfront and at first call. Time, patience and good spokespeople - especially in Korean, which is the part I lack in all this - is what is called for.

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fancypants
Member


Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 22
Location: seoul
Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 9:39 pm Post subject:

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where did you see the summary on daves? i couldn't find it.

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poof
Member


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 12

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 11:25 am Post subject: re. where is posting?

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For posting look on Job-Related Discussion Korean Forum - title something like 'Follow up on EFL law conference' or something of the sort...

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poof
Member


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 12

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 12:31 pm Post subject: re dg611's posting on Dave's...

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I can't register for Dave's ESLCafe forum for some reason, so I hope dg611 is watching this related thread here...
Again, another asking of 'will there/won't there' be a union? Let's stop asking this and let's do something!!
What I had in mind was for a group of us to arrange some meetings, where we can discuss what exactly needs to be done in order to improve foreigner's working rights, and plan ways in which we can go about implementing these changes. Surely if we are all at least college grads, we can come up with some cool ideas. Many of us must have also formed useful networks amongst the local community too. This will be really valuable in our strategy.
I'm also aware of some of the pitfalls, but I go about things with a positive mind that we can make a difference. I also know that not all Koreans are working against us. Please pm me if you don't want to post directly onto this board.
Heck, if that ESL conference at the weekend was as closed as it sounded, I think we could do a much better job to organize our own gathering. Also, for us Seoulites, I imagine that most of us teachers were deterred from going to Busan owing to distance. The majority of teachers are in Seoul; the people who have the positions to make a change are also here.

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poof
Member


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 12

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 1:52 pm Post subject: summary of problems encountered by foreign teachers

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Back again...

I came across this posting by someone it seems from 10 years previously summarizing the problems foreign teachers encounter ... 10 years ago and nothing changed... phew... come on guys, we owe it to ourselves!

Source Site: http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~jonb/laurie.html

In My View (Readers' Forum); Foreign Teachers' Rights in Korea
Printed 07/26/96:

By Laurie Notch (posted here with the author's permission)


Recently, there seems to be a rash of stories about foreign ESL teachers' experiences in the ``hakwons'' from hell. They often cite instances of being cheated out of salary (especially for overtime work), living in cramped and dirty conditions, being deprived of medical coverage and sick leave and never receiving their severance bonus or airfare reimbursement _ as promised in their contracts. When, of course, the teacher starts to complain over the shoddy living conditions and violated terms of the contract, more often than one would like to believe, the ``hakwon'' director goes ``ballistic'' and resorts to Mafia tactics such as threatening the teacher verbally, and at times physically, resulting in huge conflicts making working relations tense and work conditions difficult.

The teacher then decides to get out in hopes of finding a better job in Korea at some more reputable school, where the terms of the contract are honored and the Korean management is ``sane.'' Wouldn't anyone in such circumstances feel this way?

However, it is nigh to impossible for foreign teachers under contract to relocate to a better job as the Korean government empowers the ``hakwon'' director with the principle of the release letter. Without this letter stating that the teacher is released from all obligation to the sponsoring employer, the teacher is often ``blacklisted'' by Immigration (meaning she/he has no chance of getting another work visa for a very long time) and has no option but to leave the country. When we consider how many teachers have come here all the way from Canada, the United States, England and Australia _ most of them having paid their own airfare _ sudden expulsion can prove devastatingly costly, both financially and emotionally.

Granted, the release letter is a device to protect the ``hakwon'' industry from fickle foreign teachers who might find a better offer and flit out of their obligation to their sponsor, which is actually a reasonable precaution to guarantee the employee honors the contract. However, there are many directors who are absolutely abusive, psychologically disturbed, totally unreasonable, and who constantly intimidate, threaten and even blackmail the teacher into accepting the situation and keep on working under the cruelest of conditions.

Under these circumstances the teacher feels like an indentured servant. Then when the teacher decides she/he can't take it anymore and opts to leave (usually for his/her well-being), the director goes to Immigration, lies through his teeth, distorts the whole story to make the teacher look bad, then has the power to blacklist the teacher from working elsewhere in Korea.

The teacher has to sit with the Immigration officer, take the bullying (without benefit of a legal representative or even an interpreter) then get the final humiliating boot in the rear. ``You have to leave the country NOW!'' _ many times deprived of even the 14-day grace period to pack and make travel arrangements. So, my question is, where are the foreign teachers' rights? Who is there to speak on their behalf?

For many new foreign teachers who come to Korea, being deported and then denied any future work opportunities in Korea simply because they have argued the terms promised in the contract is entirely unfair to both foreign teachers and Koreans alike. Suddenly, they have to find the financial means to leave Korea. As they are strapped for cash, they quickly jaunt to Japan, pick up a tourist visa, then come back and work illegally to make enough money to return home. Once there, they criticize Korean people by proclaiming on the Internet or in local papers _ or even to their statesmen _ how they suffered, spreading their rancor about their experience all over.

This, in turn, dissuades well-intentioned and qualified teachers from coming to teach here. Korea winds up losing not only the very competent teacher that was deported (simply for standing up for fair working and living conditions) but also any good teachers who might come and work in future due to the bad image being created about Korean employers' abusive ways toward foreigners. The word is out: Being a ``hakwon'' teacher means being treated like a dog.

The issue here really boils down to this: Why don't the teachers have any say in the matter, or anyone to represent them at Immigration _ where it seems deportation has already been decided by the time they even have a hearing _ and tell their side of what went on in the ``hakwon'' from hell? It seems the Korean authorities assume that the Korean sponsor is always right and that all foreign teachers are simply out to make money and exploit the situation. Personally, I'm disheartened to see our Korean hosts turn so on their foreign guests, who for the most part are really here to gain an interesting cultural experience and practice the art of teaching.

The problem seems to be most serious in Pusan, Ulsan and other less cosmopolitan areas where xenophobia prevails. Why, in Pusan, just recently, there was a particularly bad situation where the ``hakwon'' director proved a real menace to the welfare of the teacher _ even to the point of resorting to threats of doing bodily harm. This renowned _ but ``psycho'' _ director has lost four teachers in the last eight months by having them fired, deported and blacklisted because they complained about the poor living and working conditions.

They endured endless overtime (without pay), were constantly bullied by said director, lived in unsafe apartments and were denied sick leave entitled by the labor law. With the help of a Korean friend (a layman with no legal experience), one teacher there decided to file a case against the director at the Labor Board over the issue of salary due. The director's response was to deport and blacklist the teacher. Is this what we get for standing up for our rights?

The next critical case I learned of concerned a physically abusive director who struck a teacher who argued with him and then stole his passport (by coming into his room and rifling through his belongings), holding it for ransom, so to speak, in order that the teacher wouldn't up and leave. Another Korean friend (again without legal background) had to threaten this director by reporting him to the police, the Labor Board and the Canadian Embassy! Again, the recourse was to stick Immigration on the teacher. Needless to say, in this case, the threats worked and the director ceded.

Under such conditions, where can a teacher go to get help and counsel? What services are available that can provide interpreters and legal representation for the maligned foreigners? If a Korean were in such a plight in America (even if there illegally), she/he would always be entitled to an interpreter and a lawyer to defend the case.

Why are the Korean authorities so one-sided in their view of foreign workers here? Moreover, where is there an agency that investigates these schools and their ``Mafioso'' directors, where teachers can report incidences of abuse and have the people investigated? Why should such directors be allowed at all to continue to employ foreign teachers (or anyone else for that matter)? Isn't there any official agency that could curb their abusive behavior or even shut them down? I've been here for eight years and I would really like to know.

It seems all the teachers who find themselves in such positions of helplessness can do is pass the word via the Internet, articles in the papers (like this one), word of mouth, or by distributing flyers to other foreigners in the area informing them which schools to avoid when considering teaching posts here. They might also report such cases to their embassy, which does keep files for such complaints. However, embassies and consulates have no jurisdiction over local Korean matters and therefore cannot intervene. But they can publicize the problems through their national information centers. Maybe such negative publicity will finally send home the message that Korea needs to clean up these disreputable ``hakwons.''

Probably the most promising note in all this nasty, mean business is the fact that the Korean Labor Board is very receptive to teachers' complaints. It's just that they are limited by the law as to how far they can go against an abusive employer. After one grueling altercation at Immigration (where the teacher did win the right to be released through the help of a Korean friend who stolidly held his ground against the Immigration officer who claimed he had no right to be there), the Immigration officer confessed to the Korean friend that he didn't understand all these problems with the foreign teachers and would like to meet sometime over a drink to discuss the best way to handle their cases. We're all still waiting for that rendezvous to happen.

In the meantime, the same officer has just taken the side of yet another ``psycho'' Korean ``hakwon'' director _ and another fine teacher that could have contributed to Korea's drive for better English education has been deported. ____

The writer is a visiting professor at Bookyoung University in Pusan.

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fatmarley
Member


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 26
Location: Busan
Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 7:47 pm Post subject:

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Well to sum up what was said at the EFL Law seminar is simple.

Immigration and the Government will not allow any groups of people to create a union that has illegal (alien) members or the potential to have.

In fact the south pacific people you are talking about where in fact arrested and the union disband and the immigrants are being deported, from what I have heard, but this is not fact.

Lastly there was a teacher in Seoul area who joined the Korean teachers union, but he was in the high school system, maybe EPIK. You can try that route.

As for me I tend to agree that a Union is a bad idea since it would ostracize us or label us as troublemakers, making it hard for us to find work and may get blacklisted at immigration. No matter how much you say I am wanking out, I have a family and responsibilities, PLUS...

Rather then trying to fight the system we should instead figure out a plausible solution like KNOWLEDGE. The biggest problem in Korea is the lack of knowledge in one cohesive source.

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Bozo Yoroshiku
Member


Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 129
Location: on the Crazy Train
Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 5:50 am Post subject:

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fatmarley wrote:
In fact the south pacific people you are talking about where in fact arrested and the union disband and the immigrants are being deported, from what I have heard, but this is not fact.

The leader of the "uinion" was arrested and detained, a Bangladeshi who has been here illegally for 9 years. He's gone as soon as his embassy issues him a passport.

As for me I tend to agree that a Union is a bad idea since it would ostracize us or label us as troublemakers, making it hard for us to find work and may get blacklisted at immigration. [...] Rather then trying to fight the system we should instead figure out a plausible solution like KNOWLEDGE. The biggest problem in Korea is the lack of knowledge in one cohesive source.[/quote]
I agree. Unionizing will never work just due to the migratory nature of the teachers. And how are you going to get any of them to pay dues, really.

However, an association (not "union) of teachers for the purposes of information sharing would be beneficial to everyone. The hagown owners have their association, and use it to get info out to "members" on how to skirt the various laws and screw the teachers without getting caught (the boss of my school is one their high muckity-mucks, and she is very good at it).

We could do the same: share info on their latest tricks and come up with counter strategies, and possibly even lobbying Immigration to change policies, etc. We need information resources, not unionizing.


--boz
_________________
"Isn't it about time parents stopped negotiating with children and just told them to shut the hell up?" ---Bill Maher

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poof
Member


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 12

Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 12:17 am Post subject: association not union

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Yeah, that's kind of what I was meaning by enclosing the word 'union' in my post. An association of sorts is what we need. I would like to see some definitive link established between the teaching community and those empowered to make the real rules governing our conditions of stay here, maybe through some lobby group or something. I agree there also needs to be a more centralized pooling of resources and evidential information available to warn potential newbies teaching in Korea. It seems that many are not aware of the pitfalls here until it is too late. A key move would also be to find a way to starve the worst institute owners of new labour to the extent they cannot exist - although then they would probably start recruiting supposed native English speakers from the depths of the Gobi desert if that happened. Actually I recently heard a story along such a line had happened here.

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poof
Member


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 12

Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 12:21 am Post subject: fatmarley's website

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p.s I just got to view Fatmarley's Website. (accessed at the base of his posting). I was so caught up in the money story. I hadn't heard of it before. I think it was conjured up by someone who'd had a bit too much to drink, but nonetheless, I can recommend others to read it for themselves.

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fatmarley
Member


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 26
Location: Busan
Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 10:24 pm Post subject: Im blushing

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Thanks for the kudos.

While we are on the subject of me, let me express my ideas on this.

Listening to the EFL Law session I came to the realization that probably the best way for teachers in this country to protect themselves is through Information. That is where the problem lies; we need to build a large database of relevant and current information for all foreigners in Korea. Labor Board Contacts, Common Immigration Problems, Korea No-no��s and other similarly related information.

Having been in Korea for long enough most people will know some of the answers to these problems or what to do in certain situations, or else they know who to ask. So what I would like to do or, at least discuss here is getting a grant or funding from the Government to write a book or group of brochures that can be placed in key areas in and around Korea.

Specifically I would like to create one for Gimhae and Incheon Airport that would list not BAD schools, but the signs of a bad school and how to protect them. Understandable it would have to be hidden from the general concourse public, so I believe putting it in front of Customs and immigration every foreigner would be able to see it and snatch up a copy.
With this help guide in hand all the newbie��s to Korea would know where to go for help, like I mentioned before as well as relevant links to sites likes Pusanweb, EFL-Law and Hogwan.Com, assuming they Didn��t do their homework before coming.

This would not be exclusive to Teachers, but could also tailor to South East Asian workers and other migrant workers who get treated worse then us. Right now with the APEC around the corner it is most likely people in the Government or city council will listen to us to appease us and I truly believe this is more effective then a Union.

Please if we do it right we can make a club or Group and advertise it in the guide, so all the new foreigners would know about it and they would be more likely to join a group then the fickle veterans of Korea. With a large membership base would come a large contact base, which would in turn make people turn their heads and take a second look. Mind you we would have to keep that low key at first but it would be the most effective way to solve the teachers�� issue, to begin with the newest and most vulnerable, start fighting back at the route of the problem.

I leave it to you to read this and comment on it, please take it serious and if you are interested in it, then get on board now and let��s start planning. Send me a message at this address teachersupport(AT)gmail(DOT)com and I will begin a mailing list putting everyone in contact with each other, or else use the EFL-Law site as a discussion base. <a href="http://efl-law.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=618">EFL-Law Union</a>

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poof
Member


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 12

Posted: Fri May 20, 2005 12:05 am Post subject: response

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Yeah, I agree about the forming of a kind of information center specifically for prospective teachers. I know of the existence of the Foreigners' Advisory Center, but not actually what it does - does this not in some way serve such common purpose?

re, the 'book' idea: getting the info only after one has arrived in Korea is really too late. The Web is clearly the best disseminator (sorry if I couldn't spell that correctly) of info these days. But we already have EFL Law along with the other sites which do in many ways show warnings about possible pitfalls.

I would like it if we are pooling together, to perhaps use our weight to put more pressure on our home governments to try and persuade the Korean law makers to reform the employment conditions here. I know there is some recognition already by the U.S. government who has some advisory notes about teaching in Korea on one of its websites, but I honestly can't imagine that many make the effort to report their experiences to their home governments. And it certainly doesn't seem to have been taken any further than just a couple of lines on their website. I think more people need to lobby their home government. Bombard them with mail. Generate petitions and campaigns at regular intervals to sustain the issue. Create awareness in foreign media as well as local media here. There's nothing more effective than media reports to get people talking and taking action. Surely it shouldn't be too difficult to organise a strategy for this.

At least I commend Fatmarley for also wanting to pro-actively take things to the next step. Thank you.

We need more comments on this. Why are not so many people reading this Site???

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fancypants
Member


Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 22
Location: seoul
Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 12:17 am Post subject:

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brochures at the airport? are you serious? perhaps:
"warning! this country has a long history of abusing foreign workers and is sanctioned to do so by numerous laws that render you completely at the mercy of your bosses whims. he is above the law. your boss may try to make you work illegally, steal your passport so you can't leave, withold pay, etc., and can break the terms of your contract and labour law with complete impunity. if you protest against your unfair treatment by quitting, you will need your bosses permission to do so. if you don't get permission to quit, your boss can blacklist you and may prevent you from working in this country again. in the case of a pay dispute, you will likely be advised by the labour counsellors to be nicer to your boss and, if that fails, to sue him from your home country. after waiting for an impossible amount of time for your case to be heard, you will recieve, on average, one third of the money your boss owes you not including court costs. if you are from a poor country, you will likely have already paid a corrupt broker around $8000 USD to secure a job in korea which will take you about a year of back breaking work to make back. you are much more likely to endure additonal harsh conditions such as violence, verbal abuse, and may work 12 hour shifts, often 7 days a week with no overtime pay. you will also be much more likely to be swindled by your boss. you are allowed to form worker's associations but your boss won't renew your sponsorship when your first year is up if you do, so you will have to leave the country without any savings, and the likelihood of you returning will be practically nil. enter at your own risk."
we don't need more access to advice regarding how we can deal with the miasma of absurd laws that affect us here...we need to change the laws. and they will not change unless we join together to demand it. a worker's association, a union, is the best way to join together.

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fancypants
Member


Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 22
Location: seoul
Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 12:48 am Post subject:

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from fat marley: "In fact the south pacific people you are talking about where in fact arrested and the union disband and the immigrants are being deported, from what I have heard, but this is not fact."

south pacific people? perhaps polynesians? the late marlon brando?

FIY
the migrant worker's union is most definitely under attack but it is far from being destroyed. this is a precedent setting union that has many solidarity groups supporting them, both within korea and around the world. the ministry of justice has long stated that all actions of "illegal workers" are to be considered likewise illegal but the fact remains that they are workers who should have worker's rights. the sad fact that 75%-80% of foreign workers in korea are undocumented reflects woefully unfair and corrupt policy that these workers ("trainees") have fled from since 1991. many of them have been here for as long as 15 years, have become acculturated into korean society, and have put down deep roots here. korea wholly adopted a new fairer but far from adequate policy recently to import fresh cheap labour and has vowed to deport this "80%". the MTU primarily represents these targeted workers and is fighting for their legalisation and the ability to change workplace.

korea has made her bed and now she must lie in it.

the chief of the MTU, anwar hossain, is currently being detained but there are many many people fighting for his release. he is being treated for head injuries as well as a paralysed hand (purportedly a result of too-tight handcuffs) both of which injuries he sustained during his arrest.

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fancypants
Member


Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 22
Location: seoul
Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 8:43 pm Post subject:

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it is disappointing that the efl.law conference didn't seem to bear fruit re: organising to put an end to the absurd laws that we english teachers are subject to.
troublemaking? what's wrong with making trouble to right a wrong? trouble for whom? the wanjangnims that have absolute impunity to do whatever they like to us? the parasitic recruiters that pimp us out to do company jobs and categorically refuse to allow us to do it legally by getting additional workplaces on our visas (doing so would make their jobs redundant and they wouldn't get their 40%-60% take from the jobs they get us). on the contrary, making trouble to work toward a more just system would not only give us and all future teachers in korea some badly needed protection but would be a helluva gratifying experience.
we are not criminals. we are teachers trying to work within an impossible system full of pitfalls and it is up to us to work toward change.

we need to form an action group, not necessarily a union, but a group working toward the concrete goal of reforming this crazy system.

our first objective could be repealing the letter of release.
secondly, making it easier to do company jobs legally by forcing recruiters to work within the law and have additional workplaces put on our visas or getting rid of this proviso altogether.
thirdly, get some sort of permanent legal help that is actually substantive and has teeth.

reforms will not only help us but will also go a long way toward fixing the tarnished image korea earned by perpetuating a system that is rife with potential for well meaning teachers to get royally and unfairly screwed.

i really don't think it would take much effort...eveyone knows, including the hapless immigration bureaucrats and policy makers, that the system is f***. reforms are slow to come unless they are forced onto the front burner from the back. it is entirely up to us to start the ball rolling.

let's organise a working group toward this goal.
send me a private message and we can arrange our first meeting.

Well...this thread now has 2 respondents...could get confusing about who we are going to pm our names too in this revolutionary outburst...

btw, what I meant by 'South Pacific' I meant by Sub-Indian Continent - sorry, at the time of posting, I was watching a musical of the former title which led to my error...

It seems we first need to agree on what we are aiming to do.

So far we have had: brochures, and a call for being more aggressive.

My ideas are also different. Upon consideration, what I think we could really lobby the government for is a 'one contract fits all' solution. By this I mean that there is one fixed identical contract statement (except for some leverage about exact salary and maybe some simple checkboxes about whether the employer is going to offer insurance, housing, severance etc) issued by each of the hogwans, private/public schools and universities. As most of the complaints come from disputes over vague contract terms, and as EFLLaw website indicates the poor English translations of the Korean contracts, a set contract provided to everyone could solve any unclarity. In accompaniment to the contract, every potential employer must be issued with again a set document authorized by immi giving the employer all the accurate information they are needed to undertake should they wish to resign - ie the Letter of Release procedure. As employers will then no doubt have to know the contents of this information, they cannot counterclaim the procedures for release etc.
This sounds ideal, right? What do you think? Something that we will all know where we stand...
Following that there needs to be a clear impartial path where each party can go should the contract terms be abused.
It doesn't require any taking to the streets to achieve this. Again, we just need people in numbers prepared to lobby in writing to the relevant commission.
(Sorry, I'm now being exposed to Pokemon in the background with high volume, so could be prone to some serious typos...excuse me)
However, it seems that the number of viewers to this site is a real hinderance. Can someone put a reference to this thread on Daves?

I think that the teaching body should separate themselves from the other forms of migrant workers. Our employment conditions and cultural backgrounds are just so different to be treated with the same brush.

As for the sentiment of being 'troublemakers', I just don't like people saying something along the line of 'those bloody waygookin making a row again'. Afterall, as you rightly point out, there are many migrant workers in worse crap than us teachers; and also from the point of view that many teachers are not here for long, it's just not fair to disturb the peace for the sake of some casual passers-through.

Interestingly, I saw last year on Arirang TV a documentary about the many Korean workers who were sold by the Korean government to work in the various mines etc of Europe, in order to boost the Korean economy back in the 70's. Wow, I had never known about all those workers - they really had such a hard time, and there are many still stranded in Europe because they don't have enough money to pay for a ticket back to Korea. I kind of felt guilty complaining about my situation. But I still nonetheless believe in some sort of reform for the teaching unit here. Afterall it is 2005, and from my teaching experience so far, for a developed Asian nation, the conditions for English teachers are the worst by far.

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poof
Member


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 12

Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 9:30 pm Post subject: create one strand, please

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fancy pants, if you start creating separate threads on the same topic, then we are going to be running around in circles forever (as if we aren't already...
Part of the trouble is the too wide a dispersion on information sources related to this issue

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fancypants
Member


Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 22
Location: seoul
Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 10:07 pm Post subject:

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you have some great ideas poof! i am assuming you were watching "south pacific"...let's take it from mary martin and "wash that immigration outta our hair"!!!
sorry for starting so many threads but i want to put out the word about starting a working group and potentially interested registered users that were active in previous similar threads will get a "reply" notification in their mailbox from the posting.
apologies all round but i think that this issue is important enough to warrant some thread confusion.
the one contract idea is pretty good...
but i reckon we need to get rid of the letter of release altogether. there is absolutely nothing redeeming about it and it forces the teacher into bonded slavery. we should have freedom to change workplaces.

as you may know, it's perfectly legal to teach privates as long as you adhere to immigration stipulations. i am a little foggy on this, havent' checked into it since 2000 but back then i was told by immigration that you can get additional workplaces put on your visa, up to 3 i think, as long as it's a business and has a classroom. this makes it easy to get one for business classes but not for home-teaching. (i have yet to meet a business class recruiter that was willing to do this though. they have everything to lose by it)
this is something we can work on too. teachers should be able to freelance if they want. they should do it above the board of course, signing contracts with their employers and paying taxes. obviously this would be very hard to moniter, but that's the job of the tax department.
you are right about the korean migrant workers in germany...hosts of nurses and miners were sent as cheap labour by the park government and had pretty much identical problems now faced by migrant workers in korea. loads of korean workers also went to saudi arabia.


anyway, poof, let's try to build something.

by the by, i tried to post stuff on dave's but i couldn't without logging on and i couldn't figure out how to register.

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fancypants
Member


Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 22
Location: seoul
Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 10:08 pm Post subject:

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you have some great ideas poof! i am assuming you were watching "south pacific"...let's take it from mary martin and "wash that immigration outta our hair"!!!
sorry for starting so many threads but i want to put out the word about starting a working group and potentially interested registered users that were active in previous similar threads will get a "reply" notification in their mailbox from the posting.
apologies all round but i think that this issue is important enough to warrant some thread confusion.
the one contract idea is pretty good...
but i reckon we need to get rid of the letter of release altogether. there is absolutely nothing redeeming about it and it forces the teacher into bonded slavery. we should have freedom to change workplaces.

as you may know, it's perfectly legal to teach privates as long as you adhere to immigration stipulations. i am a little foggy on this, havent' checked into it since 2000 but back then i was told by immigration that you can get additional workplaces put on your visa, up to 3 i think, as long as it's a business and has a classroom. this makes it easy to get one for business classes but not for home-teaching. (i have yet to meet a business class recruiter that was willing to do this though. they have everything to lose by it)
this is something we can work on too. teachers should be able to freelance if they want. they should do it above the board of course, signing contracts with their employers and paying taxes. obviously this would be very hard to moniter, but that's the job of the tax department.
you are right about the korean migrant workers in germany...hosts of nurses and miners were sent as cheap labour by the park government and had pretty much identical problems now faced by migrant workers in korea. loads of korean workers also went to saudi arabia.


anyway, poof, let's try to build something.

by the by, i tried to post stuff on dave's but i couldn't without logging on and i couldn't figure out how to register.

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poof
Member


Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 12

Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:44 pm Post subject: comments

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Okay, great idea, axe the LOR altogether. It is really an unnecessary piece of paper when you consider it. I haven't worked in another country that requires the individual to try and 'release' themselves from their employer in such a manner.

I've just noticed that if you look on the discussion forums of countries other than Korea on Dave's website, there is the option of registering for his site. I will try to register now. Our suggestions need a wider audience.

[fidel]

Look you poof, it doesn't help your cause to add stuff like;

[poof]

That was a really creative posting...
It's not a case of whether people disagree or agree with me. Main point is that people put forward intelligent responses. Comments like yours just turn people off from the idea that something can be done at last.

[kprrok]

I was actually put off simply by the length of your post. I couldn't bother reading it all. So you might want to get to the point a little quicker about what you think needs to be done or whatever. If that was somewhere in that long post, I skipped it. So summarize it for me.

KPRROK

[canukteacher]

In my opinion, the fact that you could not bother to be in Busan shoots your credibility down to nothing. You could have taken the KTX, and have come back the same day. It would have cost you less than 100,000Won. A Visa run to Japan does not cost that much. I have a difficult time with your "I cannot afford it story."

I will give the VERY short version of what was stated at the EFL forum. Joe said that he had spoken to someone at the Ministry of Justice days before the conference. He was told that an English teachers union would NOT BE WELCOMED by the Ministry of Justice.

There is a professional group here in Korea................KOTESOL. I'm sure if enough interest could be generated among that membership then perhaps suggestions could be made to the appropriate government departments to try and improve conditions here for all teachers.

I am curious, exactly who are you?


CT

[chronicpride]

[poof]

Hmm, I guess I was going to get my arsch whooped by coming on here...

If you actually bother to read all the thread - something which one of you claimed you couldn't handle reading more than a couple of sentences at a time (yeah, now I'm the one who's arsch whipping ) - it will be recognized that I/we understand the forming of a union is at this stage unrealistic, (it was the potential inclusion of larger foreign traders that put the bolt on the acceptance of a union by Korean authorities btw) but that there are potentially other avenues that can be persued to effect changes.

I'm not sure why I'm being called hypocritical. It's unfair to judge people without knowing their personal circumstances. I would like to see how others would manage on only sub 2.5 mill with no bankcard for 4 months in Korea and still be prepared to spare what Canuk guy states as a modest 100K for a return trip to the Busan conference. I don't think so. I wonder if you've also attended all the other conferences that I have been to in the past.

re Kotesol - those who have ideas on groups we can approach, then that's great. As far as I'm aware, Kotesol seems to deal with academic conferences.

I'm leaving this one open for a while.

[canukteacher]

First off..................I am a female, not a guy.

I ask the question again.............Who are you? Secondly, why do you thing you're qualified to organize anyone?

I stand by my original statement about you not being in Busan. If you are passionate about this, you would have found a way to get there.

I know you think I am ragging on you, and yeah, guess what, I am.

Like Chronic said why weren't you in the room in Busan 2 weeks ago?

I don't think you have much credibility here.

Yes, I have attended many conferences here during the past 4.5 years

CT

[fidel]

[Homer]

Indeed poof,

You seem to be commited to this cause. This is hard to defend when you did not bother to come to Busan for the conference.

As for a union or association or club or tree house of teachers...the same questions apply:

Who would run it?

How would teachers become members?

How would this association be funded (it will cost money)?

To fund this association you will need financing, hence dues..who pays dues?

Who administers the budget?

Who looks after the legal side of this association?

How do you reach teachers here who are spread all over the country and often in small schools that hire 1-4 teachers?

Are there Foreign Teacher Unions (clubs, tree houses...) in other countries where ESL is taught?

How would your proposed union affect the teaching market?

What changes would it propose?

How would it get pressure on a teaching market that is so disparate?

How would it get pressure on the Korean government?

What about those teachers who refuse to join?

The list goes on...

[Ya-ta Boy]

It's too bad all the energy that goes into saying why something can't be done isn't used to figure out solutions to how to get things done.

I have a question:

Why not join KOTESOL and use whatever credibility that organization has to pressure the government for changes? The problem is how to persuade KOTESOL to take up the cause.

In my opinion, the two biggest problems for ESLers in Korea are

a) lack of information. This forum and others partially solves that problem, but there are other solutions.

b) lack of control of our E-2 visa. Hakwon owners would be far less likely to pull stunts like withholding pay if teachers could easily change jobs. To correct this, the National Assembly would have to pass legislation. It's an important fact that the governing party is pro-labor.

[buymybook]

[chronicpride]

[poof]