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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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 Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8146881/
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Bush considers closing Guantanamo prison
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Hmmmm, whose side will Bush be on if he closes Guantanamo? |
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guangho
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Location: a spot full of deception, stupidity, and public micturation and thus unfit for longterm residency
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| Does torture lead to reliable information? |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| guangho wrote: |
| Does torture lead to reliable information? |
The experts say it doesn't. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:55 am Post subject: |
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Define torture.
Sleep deprevation isn't torture anyway. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| I could use sleep deprivation to make you recant every single thing you've ever said on this board. And you would mean it too. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
Define torture.
Sleep deprevation isn't torture anyway. |
Definitions are not important. The important thing is the truth value of the intelligence received. People under duress and pain will say what the interrogators want to hear just to make the pain stop.
False intel is as damaging to our troops as the lack of any.
Torture is not about justice or getting information. It's about revenge, and hate, and the satisfaction of inflicting pain on people you have identified as your enemies. It is about the pleasure involved in exercising power.
It is not about practical methods of combatting terrorism. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:53 am Post subject: ... |
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Two points.
1) If sleep deprivation isn't torture, then I think it should be used instead of the 2008 presidential debate. Let's keep 'em awake for 72 hours, then ask what their platform is. Perhaps we'd get more truth. Come to think of it, elementary school teachers might use sleep deprivation to teach the multiplication tables. Hey, it's not torture.
"The United States DOES NOT torture."
-GW Bush
      
2) So, suddenly, after a year where people were forced to stand on boxes with "electrodes", put in naked human pyramids, were threatoned with guard dogs, forced to wear dog collars, and lived in cages without trial or charge, the WANKOS on the right who support such abuse are trying to pidgeon-hole it as "sleep deprivation".
Yes, I remember when you were all so upset about ALL of these other things that don't fall under the category as "sleep deprivation".
NOT.
But line up, as you do now, saying, "Hey, I don't support torture. It's only a little bit of sleep deprivation."
Brahma Feces. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:53 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
Yes, I remember when you were all so upset about ALL of these other things that don't fall under the category as "sleep deprivation".
NOT.
But line up, as you do now, saying, "Hey, I don't support torture. It's only a little bit of sleep deprivation."
Brahma Feces. |
Joo claims to love America, and he and those who agree with him, and the president as well, claim that they love America more than those of us who disagree with him.
But his position on this issue shouts from the rooftops that he is opposed to the core values and ideals that made our country loved and respected around the world. He is not a patriot, and all his energy is aimed at making you believe he is, while the truth stares us in face whenever he speaks on this topic :
"Torture is fine if it's done to the right people."
We who really do ove America know that this is not America speaking, it is a small band of zealots ruled by hate and motivated by the lust for power.
We true Americans reject you. We know our country is better than you are. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Definitions are not important. |
they are too.
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| The important thing is the truth value of the intelligence received. People under duress and pain will say what the interrogators want to hear just to make the pain stop. |
Yes but does sleep depravtion work, the US got info how to reverse engineer explosive bombs . From Gitmo. I don't know how they got that info but the US did in fact get it.
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| False intel is as damaging to our troops as the lack of any. |
sure
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| Torture is not about justice or getting information. It's about revenge, and hate, and the satisfaction of inflicting pain on people you have identified as your enemies. It is about the pleasure involved in exercising power. |
That wasn't the reason that US was doing it.
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| It is not about practical methods of combatting terrorism. |
why don't you give some other that giving in to the enemy. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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Joo claims to love America, and he and those who agree with him, and the president as well, claim that they love America more than those of us who disagree with him.
But his position on this issue shouts from the rooftops that he is opposed to the core values and ideals that made our country loved and respected around the world. He is not a patriot, and all his energy is aimed at making you believe he is, while the truth stares us in face whenever he speaks on this topic : |
Really then how should the US deal with Al Qaida? Khalidh Shiek Momhamad.?
By the way the US loved? During the cold war most of the world sided with the Soviet Union.
And since the end of the cold war most of the world has been angry that there is a superpower.
And at least I don't worry that the US is too powerful or that Strategic gains in Iraq must be returned.
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| We who really do ove America know that this is not America speaking, it is a small band of zealots ruled by hate and motivated by the lust for power. |
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| We true Americans reject you. We know our country is better than you are. |
if you are worried that the US is too powerful
that any strategic gain that the US by t he US in Iraq is an ill gotten gain that must be returned
if you refuse to condemn wars against the US by many states over the years when asked
if you condemn the US war in Iraq but do not condemn the insurgents
and in fact spin thing to portray them in the best possible light
then everyone can tell who your sympathies are with or rather who they are not with.
I don't know whose side you are on but it would be safe to say that you aren't on the US side. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee"]
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| Definitions are not important. |
they are too. |
Correction : defns are only important to those who want to dfistract discussions away into minutiae about what is and isn't torture rather than confront the basic question of whether its use by a democracy in fact undermines that democracy, and whether it is smart or practical or useful at all to seek intel that is unreliable from prisoners questioned under pain and duress.
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| The important thing is the truth value of the intelligence received. People under duress and pain will say what the interrogators want to hear just to make the pain stop. |
Yes but does sleep depravtion work, the US got info how to reverse engineer explosive bombs . From Gitmo. I don't know how they got that info but the US did in fact get it. |
I'd like to hear more about that - if you could publish a source I would be grateful.
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| Torture is not about justice or getting information. It's about revenge, and hate, and the satisfaction of inflicting pain on people you have identified as your enemies. It is about the pleasure involved in exercising power. |
That wasn't the reason that US was doing it. |
But it is why you and other haters defend it. |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| By the way the US loved? During the cold war most of the world sided with the Soviet Union. |
Joo, I seldom agree with you, but that has to be one of the most off-the-wall statements you have made. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| I don't know whose side you are on but it would be safe to say that you aren't on the US side. |
The litany you describe is pretty bogus and irrational, has little to do with logic or how things are in the world, reflects a small mind that only sees relations between people in terms of dominance and submission.
You have no credentials to be able to make judgments about who is and is not a good American, not when you recommend torture as a viable tool, defend the incarceration without trial of an American citizen like Padilla, and imply the worst thing about the abuses of the American military abroad is that people found out about them.
In fact, the views of people like you provide a very good standard by which to judge what is NOT pro-American. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| why don't you give some other that giving in to the enemy. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Wangja wrote: |
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| By the way the US loved? During the cold war most of the world sided with the Soviet Union. |
Joo, I seldom agree with you, but that has to be one of the most off-the-wall statements you have made. |
http://www.allwords.org/no/non-aligned-movement.html
Tell us who did the non aligned movement usually vote with at the UN? |
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