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soviet_man
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| Monopolies remain illegal, and some social welfare measures remain untouched. |
The richest 1% of the world control 85% of the world's resources. There is NO "social welfare" in that.
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| Marxian thinking on capitalism is fatalistically flawed by its static historiographical perspective. To state the obvious: we are no longer in the late nineteenth century. |
No political ideology is static. Contemporary Marxist and Maoist theory can be applied to any current political situation.
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| Marxism tends to produce self-interested, increasingly brutal self-sustaining dictatorial political systems. |
The overwhelming majority of the world is kept perpetually poor. That is not because of anything to do with socialism. That is soley because of capitalism.
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| Moreover, your point about collectives representing popular desires fails to account for Stalin's coercion of the kulak class of middle class and lower middle class farm owners in Soviet Russia. They did not want collectives. |
I have no sympathy for the "middle" (eg. ruling) class. Compulsory collectivization (five year plans etc.) created a massive industrial and technological base that would not have otherwise existed.
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| yet Eastern Europe was quite clear in voicing its displeasure with communism and show no signs wanting to go back. |
I disagree. Belarus and Moldova retain communist governments. There are also communists and socialists in almost every national assembly in Eastern Europe and the CIS.
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| What other nation would put up with such an incompetent leadership that allows widespread starvation and economic failure? |
"Starvation" is a myth and I don't accept that the DPRK is an "economic failure".
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| The irony is that you mention capitalism leading to starvation around the world when in the case of your vaunted DRPK it is precisely capitalism that is sending those precious rice shipments along. |
If Bush were smarter than Kim Jong Il (and he isn't) he would have turned off the tap long ago. He sends off the food, because the USA lacks the will for a military confrontation with the DPRK. |
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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| soviet_man wrote: |
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| What other nation would put up with such an incompetent leadership that allows widespread starvation and economic failure? |
"Starvation" is a myth and I don't accept that the DPRK is an "economic failure". |
If starvation is a myth why did the North Koreans themselves admit to it? Do you claim to know more about the situation in the DPRK than the North Koreans do themselves? Did you miss this the first time it was posted on the previous page?
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| On May 15, Choe Su-hon, one of Pyongyang's nine deputy foreign ministers, quantified the grim truth at a Unicef conference in Beijing. Almost a quarter of a million people - 220,000 to be exact - died of famine between 1995 and 1998. As a result, and also due to medical shortages, average life expectancy fell from 73.2 in 1993 to 66.8 in 1999. Showing who exactly bore the brunt, infant mortality (under 5s) almost doubled from 27 to 48 per 1,000 people. Choe also gave data on a related disaster: his country's wider health care crisis. In 1994, 86 percent of people had access to save drinking water; by 1996, only 53 percent did. And the rate of vaccination against polio and measles fell from 90 percent in 1990 to just 50 percent by 1997. |
And if the DPRK is not an economic failure, how do you measure its success? Low production? Defaulting on loans? Hard currency debt? How about depending on handouts and joint business ventures with the hated capitalist South? What kind of self-respecting socialist utopia gets mixed up in that?
| soviet_man wrote: |
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| The irony is that you mention capitalism leading to starvation around the world when in the case of your vaunted DRPK it is precisely capitalism that is sending those precious rice shipments along. |
If Bush were smarter than Kim Jong Il (and he isn't) he would have turned off the tap long ago. He sends off the food, because the USA lacks the will for a military confrontation with the DPRK. |
You sidestepped the conundrum of why a self-reliant socialist paradise is dependent on rice shipments from the capitalist West. The problem is not turning the tap on or off, but that the tap exists at all. The North Koreans don't just want it, they need it. Why is the tap necessary, Soviet Man?
As far as a military confrontation goes, the only will lacking is the desire to destroy the Korean peninsula when such actions don't need to happen. Would you like to see a confrontation that kills millions? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:42 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:57 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| soviet_man wrote: |
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| I asked you this once before, but I will try again. If you think the North is so crash hot, what are you doing here in the South. I for one will gladly sponsor your one way ticket. |
Jaganath69, I answered that exact same question four times in the thread: "N. Korea denounces United States for human rights abuses" just last week. See that for my answer.
But more broadly, it is not as if your ex-ISO comrades didn't have quite exotic positions on issues such as North Korea, the Soviet Union and Cuba. |
I was an ISO member when I was 19, quite some time ago. If you want to keep dragging them up, fine, but I'm not about to jump in and defend them. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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Socialismworks says....
If people are profiting - the system is not socialist.
Exactly.
I think you meant,
If an individual is profiting - the system is not socialist.
But you got it right the first time. |
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soviet_man
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| If starvation is a myth why did the North Koreans themselves admit to it? Do you claim to know more about the situation in the DPRK than the North Koreans do themselves? Do you claim to know more about the situation in the DPRK than the North Koreans do themselves? Did you miss this the first time it was posted on the previous page? |
There is NO data confirming "starvation" exists in the DPRK. On the other hand, there is considerable data indicating that the DPRK is similar to the ROK in almost all non-economic statistical comparisons.
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| On May 15, Choe Su-hon, one of Pyongyang's nine deputy foreign ministers, quantified the grim truth at a Unicef conference in Beijing. Almost a quarter of a million people - 220,000 to be exact - died of famine between 1995 and 1998. As a result, and also due to medical shortages, average life expectancy fell from 73.2 in 1993 to 66.8 in 1999. |
It doesn't alter the fundamental truth. The DPRK had then - and still has now - a lower death rate than the USA and dozens of other countries. It also has a longer life expectancy than many other countries.
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| And if the DPRK is not an economic failure, how do you measure its success? Low production? Defaulting on loans? Hard currency debt? How about depending on handouts and joint business ventures with the hated capitalist South? What kind of self-respecting socialist utopia gets mixed up in that? |
The joint North/South economic project is just an experiment. It's a trial. It's temporary. If circumstances were to change, the project could be halted.
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| You sidestepped the conundrum of why a self-reliant socialist paradise is dependent on rice shipments from the capitalist West |
I don't accept that it is dependent on shipments.
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| Why is the tap necessary, Soviet Man? |
It isn't.
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| Would you like to see a confrontation that kills millions? |
It would be wrong to assume Kim Jong Il does.
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| How can you expect all problems associated with the rise of civilizations, social stratification, and industrial-based life to work themselves out in less than two hundred years? |
That is precisely why critisism of the Soviet Union and communism (generally) is usually unjustified.
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| I was an ISO member when I was 19, quite some time ago. If you want to keep dragging them up, fine, but I'm not about to jump in and defend them. |
I won't bring it up again. But as it turns out - I think you and I may know a number of the same people.
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| If an individual is profiting - the system is not socialist. But you got it right the first time. |
Any sort of profiteering will create unequal differences, no matter what the size of the group may be. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:21 am Post subject: |
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UN warns of North Korea food crisis
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1047793.stm
Ms Bertini blamed the country's political system
The United Nations has warned that millions of people face starvation in North Korea unless foreign aid is dramatically increased.
An entire generation of children has been severely damaged by the food crisis in North Korea
Catherine Bertini
The UN's World Food Programme said a whole generation of children were growing up malnourished - while others did not even survive that long.
Its director Catherine Bertini told the BBC that the country's chronic food shortage would not improve for a long time to come.
Hospitals lack basic antibiotics and vaccines
The UN is appealing for nearly $400m in aid next year - four times the amount requested this year.
The appeal follows similar warnings from a US congressman who described the crisis as one of the great disasters of the past 50 years.
'Structural' problem
Ms Bertini told the BBC that, although drought and typhoons had caused serious damage to agricultural production, the real problem was structural.
North Korea is desperate for food aid
She said the situation would not improve until there was government support for economic alternatives to the current way of doing business.
The country's Communist system, she believed, was not performing for the North Korean people.
Eating twigs
US congressman Tony Hall, who has just visited the country, painted a grim picture of people surviving on about 200g of food a day.
Korean "alternative food"
40% grain
60% twigs, leaves, bark
He said the situation in the Stalinist state had deteriorated since last year, with food production down by 50%.
Mr Hall said most people outside the capital were becoming increasingly reliant on a substitute food containing ground-up tree bark and twigs that often caused dysentery, diarrhoea and internal bleeding.
North Korea, the world's most secretive country, very rarely allows foreign visitors to leave the capital, Pyongyang.
Hospitals were cold, barren, dirty and filled with the stench of sickness
Tony Hall
But Mr Hall was permitted to visit the eastern town of Chongjin and rural areas.
He told a news conference in the South Korean capital, Seoul, that hospitals had virtually no medicine, heating or food.
Mr Hall displayed a coil of dry brown noodles which he said was made by an "alternative food" factory in Chongjin.
The ingredients were 40% grain and 60% twigs, leaves and bark. |
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ChimpumCallao
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:56 am Post subject: |
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Soviet Man is either a troll or a droid of academia.
His ideas are so stupid, impractical, and non-relevant that they can only be ascribed to higher education.
You MUST have gone to school to learn to be that stupid. I really hope nobody is born that way.
So, SOVIET MAN. You say you cannot go to NK because they said that Americans commited crimes against humanity....
but if you are SOVIET...and therefore a comrade who is from a country of similar ideologies as your beloved North......
You are a complete Troll. Anyone who has suffered under communism does not agree to all your BS ideologies that have been proven wrong time and time again. In America, during the whole stupid Che shirt phase, i never saw ONE...not ONE in Miami.
Why?
Cubans live there.
It's insulting you promote ideas that have killed millions and deprived us of innovation. It is especially insulting to us that have families from communist states or had to leave our countries due to commie terrorists.
BUT...
You are supporting globalization and capitalism just by posting on this site. Welcome to the club. The top hat and monocle should arrive shortly. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:19 pm Post subject: re: |
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I think it would be more accurate to say that every government system in the world kills in one way or another (or at least harms). Some, granted, are worse than others. Those in power protect those in power - in every system. Free markets do their share of harm, as does communism and everything in between. A better discussion would be which system is most harmful.
Peace,
Daniel |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| I won't bring it up again. But as it turns out - I think you and I may know a number of the same people. |
Cheers, you are not from Brisbane by any chance are you? |
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ChimpumCallao
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:44 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
I think it would be more accurate to say that every government system in the world kills in one way or another (or at least harms). Some, granted, are worse than others. Those in power protect those in power - in every system. Free markets do their share of harm, as does communism and everything in between. A better discussion would be which system is most harmful.
Peace,
Daniel |
I hate this PC BS of being subjective when the data given to us by past and present survivors of communism lead us to objective conclusions.
It's NOT a debate. History and FACTS have answered it for us.
COMMUNISM and SOCIALISM are abominations. We don't need to conduct a study on this. It's NOT A DEBATE!!!!!!
One would have to never been to a history class in their entire life to believe that these ideologies belong in the same platform as free market and capitalism. The latter have small problems, creative destruction, and collateral damage while contributing wealth, jobs, and innovation accross the world. Communism starves, kills, and stifles without contributing a damn thing other than misery. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:09 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
I think it would be more accurate to say that every government system in the world kills in one way or another (or at least harms). Some, granted, are worse than others. Those in power protect those in power - in every system. Free markets do their share of harm, as does communism and everything in between. A better discussion would be which system is most harmful.
Peace,
Daniel |
I hate this PC BS of being subjective when the data given to us by past and present survivors of communism lead us to objective conclusions.
It's NOT a debate. History and FACTS have answered it for us.
COMMUNISM and SOCIALISM are abominations. We don't need to conduct a study on this. It's NOT A DEBATE!!!!!!
One would have to never been to a history class in their entire life to believe that these ideologies belong in the same platform as free market and capitalism. The latter have small problems, creative destruction, and collateral damage while contributing wealth, jobs, and innovation accross the world. Communism starves, kills, and stifles without contributing a damn thing other than misery. |
Let's talk about the underlying meaning of "creative destruction" and "collateral damage." What exactly do those terms mean to the average person - remember, we're not sitting in a history or economics course; we're living in the real world.
Another thing - you need to focus. I said nothing about the glory of communism and the detriment of capitalism. I said every system destroys "in one way or another." Even anarchy. My last sentence: "A better dicussion would be which system is most harmful." You need to edit.
Daniel |
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soviet_man
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| The United Nations has warned that millions of people face starvation in North Korea unless foreign aid is dramatically increased. |
Not at all. The latest economic indicators state quite the opposite. In 2005 the DPRK's economy is growing, not decreasing.
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| Mr Hall displayed a coil of dry brown noodles which he said was made by an "alternative food" factory in Chongjin. The ingredients were 40% grain and 60% twigs, leaves and bark. |
Go for a walk through the back alleys of Dongdaemun and you'll also (literally) see people eating bark and living in squalid poverty conditions.
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| but if you are SOVIET...and therefore a comrade who is from a country of similar ideologies as your beloved North...... So, SOVIET MAN. You say you cannot go to NK because they said that Americans commited crimes against humanity.... |
When the Soviet Union existed (15+ years ago) I'm sure it would have been possible. Today is a completely different situation.
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jaganath69:
Cheers, you are not from Brisbane by any chance are you? |
No, not at all. But I am extremely familiar with the ISO, its current membership and leadership, including in your former home town. It seems we both dislike the ISO, but for vastly different reasons.
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| COMMUNISM and SOCIALISM are abominations. We don't need to conduct a study on this. It's NOT A DEBATE!!!!!! |
Pretty writing .... but you still cannot explain why under capitalism 80% of the world is kept living in poverty. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:15 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ChimpumCallao
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:19 am Post subject: |
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[
Pretty writing .... but you still cannot explain why under capitalism 80% of the world is kept living in poverty. |
[/quote]
BECAUSE THE WHOLE WORLD IS NOT FREE MARKET OR CAPITALIST!
AHHH!!! YOU ARE SUCH A TROLL!!! WHY AM I ANSWERING YOUR STUPID COMMENTS??! AHHH!!! |
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