Korean Job Discussion Forums

humanuspneumos · Joined: 08 Jun 2003

I wonder how many teachers in Korea have had a strong background of references from previous employers in a "lose-face" culture?

I kind of get a kick out of recruiters who want to know the stats on the last place you worked while the school you might go to won't give you the stats on the teacher leaving- it's all a peeek-a-booo blanket game on both sides.

What do you think- everyone should forget the concept of references in such a context (the teacher wanting other teachers email addresses and the owner probing into the last place you worked)?

The only person who seems to not be part of this game is the new teacher who has no prior connection to having any context in it at all.

I'd like to hear from people who have taught at a number of schools- those of you who are at your first school- well, it likely wouldn't apply because you don't know for sure if and when you apply at another school you'll get a shining report- especially when the owner might wonder why you didn't return to his/her school.

How do some of you avoid this rat-race?

Austin · Joined: 23 May 2003 Location: In the kitchen

Do not you think that you have to decide that long before you apply and take a position?

Are you moving up, down, or over?

Are you going to need to use this position as a step up?

It is extremely personal for some, as I would not take a position if I did not think I could what I needed out of it.

SCSA

humanuspneumos · Joined: 08 Jun 2003

to get that "good reference?"

1. Absorb pay/bonus losses.
2. Slash your fellow-workers to stay on the "in"
3. Quietly embrace programs that don't work
4. Do lots of over-time to stay on the "in"
5. Spy on others

I've been reading your posts Austin- I'm especially curious as to the lows or highs you would go to to maintain the good employer relationship you have spoken about. How do you know that at the end of the day your stooping and reaching aren't what Cost Accountants call- Phantom Profits?

Austin · Joined: 23 May 2003 Location: In the kitchen

Mach's words are what I aspire to live by, so whatever needs to be done to get to where I want to be, I will make it so!

Right and wrong are temporary things.

SCSA

Mosley · Joined: 15 Jan 2003

So, SCSA, you embrace (a)moral relativism? Highly revealing of your "character"....

humanuspneumos · Joined: 08 Jun 2003

whatever-it-takes-ism until somebody pulls a whatever-it-takes-ism on you - then it's wrong? So, should I conclude that you plan on having a good reference when it's all said and done through what-ever-it-takes-ism? Wouldn't that make you a scary person for your fellow-workers to work with? I mean- they can never be sure what you'll do just to "get there."

I remember a while back a poster named Mickey posting here- actually, there were two Mickey's. One Mickey took the other Mickey's name. Anyway, one Mickey used to support the thinking you're speaking of. I always thought that it doesn't take fellow-teachers long to catch-on to the drift of what is happening in the work-place working with such a person.
Surely, they would have signs of the do-whatever-it-takes-ism around them.

And I always thought that people who hold this theory would have numbered days before all the teachers would surround them and pull them down through whatever means be at hand. Or perhaps catch a person such as this, for example- reading their email on the LAN- easy to do with networks- and then quitting with a unanimous cry or discovering that the whatever-it-takes-ism didn't even have a degree- something like that. Which, in your opinion would be worse- not getting the reference or having a team of people who'll eventually be all over the world pull you out of the way in so many ways? Wouldn't such an attitude- to get the reference- lead to this?

Mosley · Joined: 15 Jan 2003

What the OP has to understand is that Austin(aka SCSA, King Rat, Pillsbury Doughboy, Betty Crocker, Socrates[LOL!]) is either a troll or someone who actually believes his demented philosophy. A troll I can forgive-make him serve 5 yrs. hard labour and then all is forgiven. If it's the latter, then I cannot forgive him. Anyone who advocates lying prostrate before the peninsular overlords all the while backstabbing fellow ex-pats deserves nothing but contempt....

kylehawkins2000 · Joined: 08 Apr 2003

I had an excellent reference from my last employer. How did I get it? I busted my ass and worked hard. Not for the reference but for my students. The hard work was worth it becuase of the positive relationships with students that it fostered.

I believe the strong reference led to several job offers that I may not have otherwise been given. But that was an incidental spinoff.

As far as getting good references from other teachers working at a school concerning the quality and atmosphere at the schoool I guess it's hit and miss. This time around I didn't even bother to talk to other teachers, and opted instead to ask some good probing questions to the director. At the end of the day if the director lies to me I know I can always quit the job....there are lots of options available.

humanuspneumos · Joined: 08 Jun 2003

while in Korea I've heard almost exact quotes come out of person's mouths that reflect exactly such attitudes as Austin's. His position is a reality even if his many faces aren't. So, for the sake of continued discussion on "lose-face" cultures- what do you think your chances are of hitting 1/1 or 2/2 or 3/3 schools that'll end in a good reference?

Austin · Joined: 23 May 2003 Location: In the kitchen

I do not co-teach with other foreigners. I do not plan my lessons with other foreigners. I use my own books and my materials, and I teach my classes to the best of my ability.

I play the political game at school, but if I cover my own backside and other foreigners do not cover theirs, why should that be my problem?

You make it sound like you are all one big collective of mediocrity.

If I am doing my job and teaching my students without complaints and only positive results, why must I fear the others?

Could it be that they do not like the fact that my performance makes their attempts at teaching look less than stellar? Could they be bothered that I get paid more than they do for the same amount of teaching hours? Could they be bothered that I get special treatment from the boss? Could they be bothered that I have never used a sick day in six years?

I will offer assistance when others that I work with need it, but I do not loan out my material! If you want to know where you can buy it, I will tell you. The rest of it you can make for yourself.

I know who pays for my retirement and pads my accounts. It is not the other foreigners, but it is the big boss man!

He is the only person I need to satisfy. The others can drink themselves into..., so they can live with the quality of work they are doing.

SCSA

Mosley · Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Yet another nickname for SCSA: "Smithers".

humanuspneumos · Joined: 08 Jun 2003

teacher to finally get the good reference. I did find it interesting that Mickey and other person(s) find it needful to berate the teachers though- in the midst of doing a "good job." In some countries that can go a long way with the boss to seem like one's at the top. However, the idea that good and evil don't exist may live in the same house that good teacher/bad teacher doesn't exist- that is unless the teacher is eating pizza in the class- right?

A research Dr. once said that it's not uncommon to skew statistics for social/economic reasons. Other ways to skew statistics are to play the drop the clamp games- spend lots of money- and then due to a flash of chemicals to the receptors- "I won." Really? What then is winning? At what lengths must one go in a "lose-face" society to win? Berate the others? Cut them down until they are down and lose their chance at a reference in the context of misinformation flow? I wouldn't think that even the most primitive of ethnos could sleep at night with that one. Mickey would likely agree with you Austin. I don't know that persons with legitimate teaching degrees would say they learned that in school- but, after all- public school teachers likely aren't great- right Austin? heee heee

Anyway, you likely know this since you've been in Korea (hmmmmmmmmmmmmm six years was it?)- that co-teachers could insist on situational epistemological grounds that they are the one's doing a great job. Since good/evil don't exist that would be a valid point though not sound. Supposing the owner lent an ear under lots of pressure- wouldn't that be a threat for leaving on sweet terms?

I wish there was an Australian making my points for me- they have a way with words that I don't.

eamo · Joined: 08 Mar 2003 Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.

After two different hagwons I've worked out that a good reference is got by never taking a day off.

I'll always remember one of my previous directors giving a misty-eyed farewell to a Kiwi teacher who had finished his year without missing one day. Anytime the teachers name was mentioned he would go glassy-eyed again and mutter 'never a day off, never a day off'.

On the other hand I've worked with teachers who seem to have a new sickness every week and take days off willy-nilly. They don't get the same fond farewell.

I did a sickday-free year in 2000-2001. When I asked the above director for a reference he just told me to write my own and he would sign it and stamp it. I did. He did. It's a great reference!!!

Oh, and of course, never complain about anything.