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Emma Goldman
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Location: state of anarchy
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 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:53 pm Post subject: Women, or Marines? |
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Female U.S. Marines Ambushed in Iraq
AP - 16 minutes ago
BAGHDAD, Iraq - A suicide car bomber and gunmen ambushed a convoy carrying female U.S. Marines in Fallujah, killing two Marines and leaving another four American troops presumed dead, the military said Friday. At least one woman was killed and 11 of 13 wounded were female. The terror group al-Qaida in Iraq claimed it carried out the bombing, one of the single deadliest attacks against the Marines — and against women — in this country. |
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/iraq
So, are they women, or are they Marines? I wonder if the women involved would appreciate the implication that they should be treated differently for lack of a *beep*? I think most women who enter the Marines are not thinking that the war should stop and the door should be held open by the enemy because they are women.
This was not an attack against women, it was an attack against Marines. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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This was not an attack against women, it was an attack against Marines.
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Are you a self-hating woman? |
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Emma Goldman
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Location: state of anarchy
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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This was not an attack against women, it was an attack against Marines.
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Are you a self-hating woman? |
No.
When a person makes the decision to be a warrior, the gender should not matter. Period. Women in the United States fought long and hard to be treated equally, that means one has equal responsibility and liability for the decision they make. Equal is equal. A Marine is a Marine.
I sure would never join the Marines and opt to kill other people, but women have the right to do that, and by doing so, take all the attendant risks. The enemy is under no moral duty to respect their womenhood over their status as the uniformed people they are fighting.
It is a point of principle that if I wish to be treated as an equal person, I have to take the responsibilities that go with that status.
For example, if we go to tea, I will pay for my own, and maybe yours, if I take a fancy to.  |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| When a person makes the decision to be a warrior, the gender should not matter. |
I skimmed the article, perhaps too quickly. Did it mention that the writer is a female Marine? Or was the writer a journalist (I use the word in the broadest possible way)? If the headline writer was a female Marine, then you have a point. If the writer was a journalist, you are blaming a group for something they didn't say or claim. |
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Emma Goldman
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Location: state of anarchy
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| When a person makes the decision to be a warrior, the gender should not matter. |
I skimmed the article, perhaps too quickly. Did it mention that the writer is a female Marine? Or was the writer a journalist (I use the word in the broadest possible way)? If the headline writer was a female Marine, then you have a point. If the writer was a journalist, you are blaming a group for something they didn't say or claim. |
No, my point is not about the particular writer- probably, as you say, a putative journalist. As I said, I wonder if the women Marines who were attacked would appreciate the thrust of the article being about their being women, and therefore requiring special consideration.
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| At least one woman was killed and 11 of 13 wounded were female. The terror group al-Qaida in Iraq claimed it carried out the bombing, one of the single deadliest attacks against the Marines — and against women — in this country. |
I am not blaming any particular group. I suspect the women involved are extraordinary in their commitment- the Marine Corp is no walk in the park. And they are extraordinary in their ability to survive Marine training. It demeans them to focus on their gender.
I don't agree with their decision to go to war, but I respect their strength and courage, and they deserve equal respect.
I hope that makes my point clearer. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| The general public is interested in female Marines, no? Stating the gender of these women doesn't, and wasn't intended to, demean them in any way. Journalists have to make sure their stories are ones people are interested in, hence will pay money for. A story about female Marines is one a lot of people will be interested in. |
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Emma Goldman
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Location: state of anarchy
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| The terror group al-Qaida in Iraq claimed it carried out the bombing, one of the single deadliest attacks against the Marines — and against women — in this country. |
Please note that this is stated clearly as "an attack against women." It isn't just saying that the Marines involved were tall, or from Arkansas, or even, as an aside, women.
It was presented as an attack against women. Period.
Is this too fine a distinction, I humbly argue, not. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| I wonder if the women involved would appreciate the implication that they should be treated differently for lack of a *beep*? |
Evidently you are not an American. If you were, you would know that it's the rare American woman indeed, these days that wants a man to speak for how she feels. As a liberated woman yourself, you must appreciate that. Maybe if you went to a chat room where the patrons are female Marines you could get your curiosity satisfied. |
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Emma Goldman
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Location: state of anarchy
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm, I usually understand you posts, but I don't get your point here.
I am exactly saying that these women would not want to be treated or spoken differently than any other Marine, regardless of anatomy.
The part about men speaking for them I don't understand. I don't believe I said that anywhere.
Please explain your point to me. Perhaps I have mistated my case, which is rather simple, really.
Marines were killed, some were women, it was probably not intended as "an attack against women" as the article states. That is my objection. |
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Smee
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Location: Jeollanam-do
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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I agree, it's disrespectful.
But this happens all the time . . . and it's insulting all the way around.
For example, when a man is killed---as they more frequently are---he is identified not by gender but by age or position (like, a 24-year old was killed crossing the street, or four soldiers died in a roadside . . . )
I agree that equal means equal. I suspect the writer was trying to inject some human interest into the story---or raise some eyebrows. But men are dehumanized in the blase (sp?) way our societies treat and report violence, and women are objectified (in a similar way) by setting them up as being somehow more sympathetic, or their deaths somehow more tragic. |
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Emma Goldman
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Location: state of anarchy
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| Smee wrote: |
I agree, it's disrespectful.
But this happens all the time . . . and it's insulting all the way around.
For example, when a man is killed---as they more frequently are---he is identified not by gender but by age or position (like, a 24-year old was killed crossing the street, or four soldiers died in a roadside . . . )
I agree that equal means equal. I suspect the writer was trying to inject some human interest into the story---or raise some eyebrows. But men are dehumanized in the blase (sp?) way our societies treat and report violence, and women are objectified (in a similar way) by setting them up as being somehow more sympathetic, or their deaths somehow more tragic. |
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
The most generous interpretation is the one you propose. And I agree with you that somehow men are seen to be appropriate targets and perpetrators of violence. And I agree that that is equally noxious.
I see something else at work in the article and the way it is being reported on CNN, which somehow has the same slant on the story. Reporters get most of their stock material for such events directly from the military or the U.S. State Department. The resistance/insurgence in Iraq need to be continually demonized to perpetuate American, and world, support, which is now badly flagging, for this war. I suspect the language of "attack on women" is stock reporting from official government sources who definitely have less than benign intents. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:01 am Post subject: |
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I'll try to be clearer.
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I am exactly saying that these women would not want to be treated or spoken differently than any other Marine, regardless of anatomy.
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I have no idea how they would want to be spoken of. On the one hand they may agree with you. On the other, as far as I know, few countries train women in the military and only the US uses women in any kind of combat role (and there is a movement in Congress to further limit this role). It's only been possible for the last 10 or 15 years. It could be these Marines don't mind the attention insofar as they are breaking ground and can demonstrate their competence.
(If it makes any difference, I am always puzzled when someone asks me how someone else thinks. How the heck do I know? Ask them. I also think it odd that someone claims to know how another person thinks. IMO it only tells me about the person speaking, not the person spoken for. But that's just me.)
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The part about men speaking for them I don't understand. I don't believe I said that anywhere.
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Here I was speaking about asking a forum that is probably 90% male to express how we think a group of women are thinking.
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| it was probably not intended as "an attack against women" as the article states. That is my objection. |
The women may or may not have been targeted. My suspicion (and it is only that) is that it was deliberate. My cell phone is down for the weekend so I'm out of contact with my friends in the insurgency. But back to my suspicions.
First, it would be quite possible for the insurgents to have the information that a group with a large number of women would be somewhere they could be attacked. A reporter said that it was common for Iraqi soldiers playing soccer to suddenly say it is time to quit, and a few minutes later shells would land. Pretty clear evidence there is some amount of infiltration between the insurgents and Iraqi trainees. The soldiers on the ground are reporting fewer of these incidents however.
Second, as I mentioned, there is a movement to restrict women's combat role in the military. This is coming from conservatives who don't want women in combat positions at all. There are a good many conservatives who are not comfortable with women's equality. It makes perfect sense for the insurgents to attack and kill as many women as possible to play on the discomfort of this portion of the American population.
Third, fundamentalist Moslems must be outraged at the idea of female soldiers. Everyone knows this. That is why some of the female guards at Abu Ghraib did what they did. This is why Ellen deGeneres said what she did at the Oscars just after 9/11--an openly lesbian woman must be their worst nightmare. It makes sense that the insurgents would target women soldiers.
Again, whether this group was in fact targeted, I have no way of knowing. But it is plausible. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:46 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:40 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Smee
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Location: Jeollanam-do
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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I suspect the language of "attack on women" is stock reporting from official government sources who definitely have less than benign intents.
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I get that feeling, too, but it's just a gut reaction. No link or anything. And a few hours ago there was a spread on CNN about women in combat, mentioning how more women have died this time in Iraq than in any other war.
But that always rubs me the wrong way. It is, as you said Ms. Goldman, that men are expected to die. Lines like "Three hundred were killed, including 30 women and children" are infuriating.
We went through a similar thing when two women journalists (Italians, I think) were kidnapped and beheaded in Iraq. "Oooh, they're killing women now," and all that baloney.
I'm not sure if I'd put the author as a hardcore feminist. N.O.W. is obsessed with the issue of women in combat. I'd actually figure the author for an old-fashioned type, one who believes in the "it's not cool to hit girls" thing. I'd expect a "hardcore feminist"---whatever that means---to focus more on the government and media bias that characterize women as too fragile, or too much of a distraction, or too "biologically different," or whatever . . . |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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