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Where have all the patriotic leaders gone?

 
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:55 am    Post subject: Where have all the patriotic leaders gone? Reply with quote

This post is really just for the Americans. The rest of you have your own unique concerns.


I just finished reading �Founding Brothers: the Revolutionary Generation� by Joseph J. Ellis (published in 2000, it won the Pulitzer). It was fun reading again about how Burr shot Hamilton, how much John Adams hated Ben Franklin, the friendship that turned into a vicious rivalry and then back into friendship between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson who then both died on the 50th anniversary of the Declaration.

But there was a chapter on Washington and his Farewell Address that really struck me as especially relevant to today. I want to quote a portion of it.

�The manner in which the Farewell Address was actually composed, as it turned out, served as a nearly perfect illustration of its central message�the need to subordinate narrow interests to the larger cause. Much ink has been spilled by several generations of scholars in an effort to determine who wrote the bulk of the words that eventually found their way into print and then into the history books�[T]he creation of the Farewell Address was an inherently collaborative process. Some of the words were Madison�s; most of the words were Hamilton�s; all the ideas were Washington�s. The drafting and editing of the Farewell Address in effect became a metaphor for the kind of collective effort Washington was urging on the American people as a whole.� [Madison was a Democratic Republican and Hamilton a High Federalist.]

�And so when Washington sat down to draft his Farewell Address, three salient features rose up out of the immediate political terrain to command his attention: First, he needed to demonstrate that, while poised for retirement, he was still very much in charge, that those rumors of creeping senility and routinized ineptitude were demonstrably wrong; second, he wanted to carve out a middle course, and do so in a moderate tone, that together pushed his most ardent critics to the fringes of the ongoing debate, where their shrill accusations, loaded language, and throbbing moral certainty could languish in the obscurity they deserved; third, the all-time master of exits wanted to make his final departure from the public stage the occasion for explaining his own version of what the American Revolution meant. Above all, it meant hanging together as a united people, much as the Continental Army had hung together once before, so that those who were making foreign policy into a divisive device in domestic politics, all in the name of America�s revolutionary principles, were themselves inadvertently subverting the very cause they claimed to champion. He was stepping forward into the battle one final time, planting his standard squarely in the center of the field, inviting the troops to rally around him rather than wander off in romantic cavalry charges at the periphery, assuring them by his example that, if they could only hold the position he defined, they would again prevail.

***
*The reference to �the all-time master of exits� is of course referring to his laying down of power on Dec. 22, 1783 when he could have made himself a Julius Caesar or Napoleon. George III is supposed to have said when he heard Washington would resign his command, �If he does that, he will be the greatest man in the world.�


Reading that chapter of course made me want to read the full Address again. I had forgotten how many good observations were in it. I decided to print just one part, but there are several other parts that have something relevant to say about today.

Published in the American Daily Advertiser, September 19, 1796:

Friends, And Fellow Citizens
Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you
in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of
party, generally.

This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under
different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but in those of the popular form, it is seen in its greatest rankness, and is truly their worst enemy.

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissention, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual, and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of public liberty.

Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight), the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.

It serves always to distract the public councils, and enfeeble the public administration. It agitates the community with ill founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country, are subjected to the policy and will of another.

There is an opinion, that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the government and serve to keep alive the spirit of liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in governments of a monarchical cast, patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged.
From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume�

*****
Reading stuff like this reminds me of just how low current political discourse has fallen. Secondly, it reminds me that the public has a responsibility to rein in the parties when they get too far out, too corrupt or too power hungry.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:48 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

Quote:
in governments of a monarchical cast, patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged.


While I wouldn't say it strikes a chord, I think it touches a tone.

But you're right. Washington was a bit of steakhead.

In between here, Jefferson's vision of the Articles of Confederation are being down-played in favor of centralization, and saying, in a very fairy-tale way, that political parties in America should be more civil.

I might be as optimistic if I were headed for death and hoped my children would all get along.

But I'm with Jefferson:

Make my funk the P-Funk.

I want my funk uncut.

Make my funk the P-Funk.

I wants to get funked up

Make my funk the P-Funk

I want the BOMB

I want the P-Funk

Don't want my funk stepped on

Make my Funk the P-Funk

Before I take it home.

Funk is FREEDOM

Don't want my funk stepped on.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Jefferson's vision of the Articles of Confederation are being down-played in favor of centralization


Rightfully so, whatever you think about Jefferson, the Articles of Confederation were worse than useless. I'm sure Ya-ta Boy, as a knowledgable historian of American history will testify to this. You don't have to agree with America today to disagree with the Articles of Confederation.

Ya-Ta Boy, have you read De Tocqueville's Democracy in America? I would guess you have, but in the narrow case that you hadn't, I think it is the best written analysis of American democracy. De Tocqueville suggests that private interest will be the downfall of American democracy if anything (that and the power of the legislature in relation to the other branches of democracy). I think he is spot on.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But you're right. Washington was a bit of steakhead.

In between here, Jefferson's vision of the Articles of Confederation are being down-played in favor of centralization, and saying, in a very fairy-tale way, that political parties in America should be more civil.



What on earth is a 'steakhead'? It sounds negative, but since my post about Washington was entirely positive, that can't be right.

Yes, Jefferson was horrified by the idea of centralized government. He never got over the idea of being governed by Britain. He left Washington's cabinet and led the Democratic Republican opposition in Washington's second term. He believed both Washington and Adams betrayed the Revolution by espousing the cause of a strong central government. He believed that right up to the moment he got power and bought Lousiana. Funny how ideals often don't survive encounters with reality. Personally, I think Jefferson was a one-hit wonder. It was one heck of a hit, but he was never able to live up to it ever again.

I don't see anything 'fairy tale'-like about what he said. He said party spirit is dangerous, and I see that happening today. Both parties are using very heated rhetoric and compromise is way down the list of priorities. Issues that need to be dealt with are being ignored. For example, Social Security. For a couple of months Bush was running around the country convincing the public that there is a crisis. His solution, not a solution, was rejected. There is nothing else on the table. So now we recognize there is a crisis and no one has any idea of what to do about it. Dubin and Rove were both out of line. Everyone in the government seems to be focused on how to score points on the the other party and no one seems to be paying attention to governing the country.


Quote:
have you read De Tocqueville's Democracy in America


I have read an abridged version, not the complete work. It has a lot of very perceptive insights to democracy and how it works. I do think he was seeing things through his French background where their experiment with it went way wrong way fast.

I'm not convinced having a legislature stronger than the president is a bad idea. With the House, Senate and a President all involved in making laws, it almost always happens that many ideas get considered and usually some compromises are made.

I do agree with your comment (and de Tocqueville's) on 'private interest'. It seems to me that that eventually becomes the downfall of states. People get to the point that they withhold loyalty to the state in favor of personal gain. I think Gibbon demonstrated that pretty well.[/quote]
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-Ta Boy wrote:
I'm not convinced having a legislature stronger than the president is a bad idea. With the House, Senate and a President all involved in making laws, it almost always happens that many ideas get considered and usually some compromises are made.


It's tough, and of course I agree with you, you don't want the Executive stronger than the Legislature. Supposedly, the Executive Branch's power is enervated because it cannot dictate policy, only follow it. This is less true in practice than in theory, but I cannot say that it is always a bad thing when the Executive innovates.

I don't want to gush about De Tocqueville too much here, but I will say that I am always nervous of the encroachment of the Legislative Branch onto the Supreme Court's domain by means of unnecessary amendments.
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PaperTiger



Joined: 31 May 2005
Location: Ulaanbataar

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:52 pm    Post subject: Where DO you get your ideas??? Reply with quote

"He said party spirit is dangerous, and I see that happening today. Both parties are using very heated rhetoric and compromise is way down the list of priorities. Issues that need to be dealt with are being ignored."

"Everyone in the government seems to be focused on how to score points on the the other party and no one seems to be paying attention to governing the country."

"Reading stuff like this reminds me of just how low current political discourse has fallen. Secondly, it reminds me that the public has a responsibility to rein in the parties when they get too far out, too corrupt or too power hungry."

This is exactly what I tried to start a discussion, you twit. Well, now that I've quoted what you consider to be your most credible source (YOU), I suppose my opinion is somehow tolerable. You PolySci gadflies are all the same, unless someone can substantiate their opinion with a glut of footnotes, quotes, and let's not forget....namedropping...it's not worth it to discuss anything with them. You are almost as smart as you are eloquent.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is exactly what I tried to start a discussion, you twit. Well, now that I've quoted what you consider to be your most credible source (YOU), I suppose my opinion is somehow tolerable. You PolySci gadflies are all the same, unless someone can substantiate their opinion with a glut of footnotes, quotes, and let's not forget....namedropping...it's not worth it to discuss anything with them. You are almost as smart as you are eloquent.



Actually, I'm much smarter than I am eloquent, but thanks for noticing my eloquence.

I detect a bit of hurt feelings here.

I think if you read my posts, you will see that I pepper them with "I think" and "It seems to me" etc. rather than presenting my opinions as facts so that I don't need to quote sources. I'm not all that impressed with academic sources. But I do want examples.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaperTiger wrote:
You PolySci gadflies are all the same, unless someone can substantiate their opinion with a glut of footnotes, quotes, and let's not forget....namedropping...it's not worth it to discuss anything with them. You are almost as smart as you are eloquent.


My guess is that you wouldn't have as much courage (or even a quarter as much indignation) to enter a chat board on organic chemistry and accost graduates in such studies in such terms. Somehow their demand that you might want to read something in the field before you opened your mouth and stuck your foot in it would probably have more credence to you. Why is that?

I've seen the namedropping charge before, and I think it would be a fair one if you could show us how discussing authors' books takes away from the discussion. Frankly, it was not Ya-Ta Boy, but I who brought up De Tocqueville (I did read it while studying political philosophy, and I am one of those arrogant twats who has gratitude for his education and enjoys talking about it when I can), and I did so primarily to get Ya-Ta's opinion, or anyone else who had read the book and might inform me about it. If you find this pretentious, there are a thousand other juvenile chatboards you can start at, but without thinking or reading at least good books (nevermind great books like Democracy in America) on the subject, I doubt you'll ever begin to really gain much depth, and more likely you'll drown in shallow waters.

The truth is that political philosophy is like science in that there are a community (albiet many dead now) of knowledgable practioners of the art. Montesquieu, Hobbes, and Rousseau come immediately to mind (I will now namedrop just to spite you). The fact that it is not as widely appreciated as scientific inquiry is not a good argument for disdaining it more. My suggestion to you is to stop attacking people who are polisci grads because they enjoy something and have worked hard at it. It makes you look silly.
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PaperTiger



Joined: 31 May 2005
Location: Ulaanbataar

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:46 pm    Post subject: An opinion by any other name would be less sweet... Reply with quote

Don't cry kids, dealing with other people's modes of expression and opinions are all part and parcel of an internet forum. I had no idea I was entering the territory of some secret enclave where I should mind my p's and q's.

Kudos wrote, "My guess is that you wouldn't have as much courage (or even a quarter as much indignation) to enter a chat board on organic chemistry and accost graduates in such studies in such terms." Oh my, the slings and arrows of outraged steakheads, this barb hath *beep*'d my fragile thingamabob. Unlike organic chemistry or other areas hard science, politics is mainly a very soft science and not something you can get many reliable sources for (in a historical, not philosophical context, mind you). You can however, get quite a bit of opinion and speculation, which all the finest minds in philosophy had engaged in words and print....Montesquieu, Hobbes, Rousseau, a great many of the Founding Fathers, Mao, Trotsky, Jello Biafra, George Clinton of Paliament, and the guy with the funny voice from Cameo come immediately to mind (I will now namedrop just to spite you).

My feelings are not hurt. I have smacked larger mosquitos before. If my opinion needs to be identified as such, lest it be mistaken for fact...then your nose might be more at home in some mildewed tome (ah...eloquence AND rhyme!) memorizing the words of some dead guy who might not be able to draw any reasonable connection between his theory and the reality of modern politics.

I don't have disdain for Polysci majors (although employers might) until they start claiming that they are they only people entitled to an opinion on the subject.

If my foot is in my mouth it is because I am very limber and prefer a direct approach to extracting ingrown toenails.

Funny how you guys love to talk about how educated you are and how many books you've read, but the only way you can address the subject I introduced is by attacking me for having an opinion.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaperTiger wrote:
Funny how you guys love to talk about how educated you are and how many books you've read, but the only way you can address the subject I introduced is by attacking me for having an opinion.


You are claiming you are being attacked for having an opinion. Well, no, its for having a poor opinion, and in addition, get over it. People suffer 'attacks' on message boards all the time. But really, I was disputing your impressions about people who major in political science. You came in here making broad generalizations about Polysci majors, and for your information, I didn't simply major in Political Philosophy, I also grounded myself in the hard sciences as well.

PaperTiger wrote:
I don't have disdain for Polysci majors (although employers might) until they start claiming that they are they only people entitled to an opinion on the subject.


Fine, I'll take your word on that, but...

PaperTiger wrote:
Unlike organic chemistry or other areas hard science, politics is mainly a very soft science and not something you can get many reliable sources for (in a historical, not philosophical context, mind you).


I am a little hesitant to try to refute you, because I might avail myself of same 'namedropping' (your term for what I am more likely to call a reliable source) to do so. And after all, that would back me in a corner where you could claim that no matter what the content of my argument, I would be pompous for asserting an earlier argument (is quoting another board member namedropping, btw?). But once again, you are entitled to your opinion! And believe me, getting me to assert this is a small defeat for me, since I consider it quite asinine whenever someone says 'You are entitled to your opinion,' because it seems so trite and obvious. It's just the thing is, I am not impressed at all by any of your opinions that I have seen so far.

That being said, I do think you would be better served by not attacking particular members in one thread for what they may have said to you in another, and definitely better served by not attacking an entire class of people while you are doing so, thus further denying you any support. Not that you are going to get a lot of support from anyone here anyway by claiming that Ya-Ta Boy is a twit.
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