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joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:51 am Post subject:

Dan wrote:

Jimmy Carter - It's ironic that he is so widely regarded as a poor president, and yet so highly regarded as an ex-president.

A good politician's main talent is making speeches - associating himself with good news and associating bad news with the other party. An administrator has to actually get things accomplished. The problem with Carter, Clinton, etc, is that they couldn't lead people. Clinton made himself look good for many years, but Carter couldn't and didn't know why. He probably thought the "malaise" speech would earn him points, as if saying "the country is in deep ****" meant it wasn't his fault...

joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:54 am Post subject:

bucheon bum wrote:

why don't you stop spewing out crap you get from Rush, Michael Savage, and company and come up with EVIDENCE? And PROOF? And FACTS?

I think RUSH are Canadian. Why would I take their advice on US political history. Who that other guy is I don't know? Is it one of the band members?

Facts/evidence: Nixon ended the Vietnam fiasco. Nixon went to China. How else is anybody's life affected by the Nixon administration 30 years later?

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:02 am Post subject:

deleted Last edited by Gopher on Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:33 am; edited 1 time in total

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:08 am Post subject:

joe_doufu wrote:

bucheon bum wrote:

Don't forget Pervez Musharraf. He loves democracy too; so much that he decided to stay on as President indefinitly.
...
By the way, if you're going to choose a nasty dictator, Chiang Kai-Shek really isn't a good choice. Taiwan is rather well-off these days. If only the Arab world had such a dictator, things might not be that bad there.

Chiang-Kai Shek was a murdering warlord, surpassed in brutality only by Mao himself. He is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. When Chiang died, his son changed the country into a liberal democracy because the Cold War was ending and he knew the US would no longer prop up a dictator in Taiwan. This is *exactly* what I think is good about the recent developments in US foreign policy. We're doing what we're saying.

Now as to Pervez Musharraf, don't you understand that he is your and my best friend? If that country had free elections, they would instantly vote for the Taliban jew-murdering party, and start distributing nukes to Al-Qaida.

Liberty and Democracy do not go hand in hand, they are in fact opposites and exist in balance. Liberty is more important, by the way. Remember Nazi Germany was a Democracy.

When Musharraf gets assassinated (and he will) Pakistan will be worse off. In Turkey, too, the military has tended to dissolve elected governments when the hardline Islamists win. It's not a dream system but it is better than nothing.

Didn't you say this is why you liked Bush? Because for once, the United States could not be hypocricital and stop supporting dictators? But here you are, acknowledging that it really isn't the case. What's the difference between now and the Cold War? The only difference is Pakistan now claims to be fighting terrorism instead of communism. Same relationship, different opponent.

So what makes Bush so special again??

And Taiwan became a liberal democracy long before Dubya came into office. Furthermore, I think most people from Taiwan would be aghast that you compare Chiang to Mao. Chiang did not launch such idiotic things as the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, which killed millions of people.

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:39 am Post subject:

Quote:

Jimmy Carter - It's ironic that he is so widely regarded as a poor president, and yet so highly regarded as an ex-president.

Yes, it is. Some go so far as to say he is in a league with John Q. Adams as the most successful former president. Not a bad legacy.

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:42 am Post subject:

Quote:

I think RUSH are Canadian. Why would I take their advice on US political history.

Is this a serious response? If it is, Rush will be crushed that his name recognition is lower than a modestly successful rock band.

joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:54 pm Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Quote:

Jimmy Carter - It's ironic that he is so widely regarded as a poor president, and yet so highly regarded as an ex-president.

Yes, it is. Some go so far as to say he is in a league with John Q. Adams as the most successful former president. Not a bad legacy.

Depends on your definition of "successful". Has he achieved anything? Carter is a talker who's only talent is showing up at the right times to make himself look good. He's not a leader of humans.

joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:01 pm Post subject:

bucheon bum wrote:

What's the difference between now and the Cold War? The only difference is Pakistan now claims to be fighting terrorism instead of communism.

I should have said I'm proud that we support "liberty" not "democracies". We no longer support *evil* dictators. A general who ousted the government to prevent the Taliban from making slaves of the women and handing nukes to fanatics, is worthy of our support.

Quote:

I think most people from Taiwan would be aghast that you compare Chiang to Mao. Chiang did not launch such idiotic things as the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, which killed millions of people.

Do you know many Taiwanese? Most of the young ones DO NOT like CKS. He was a warlord just like Mao, who overthrew Sun Yat-Sen's republic within a few years of its founding. The only reason he didn't have a "great leap forward" or "cultural revolution" was because he lost.

PS: Taiwan's first really free election was in spring of 2000, just at the end of Clinton's tenure.

joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:02 pm Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Quote:

I think RUSH are Canadian. Why would I take their advice on US political history.

Is this a serious response? If it is, Rush will be crushed that his name recognition is lower than a modestly successful rock band.

Yes. Who is Rush? Sorry I don't watch television. Some Fox news celebrity?

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:05 pm Post subject:

joe_doufu wrote:

Who is Rush?

Rush Limbaugh: Ideologue-Extraordinaire. Spews conspiracy theories about Ruby Ridge and everything else that get's the extreme right salivating.

Like a lot of people on this board, he hurls sensational opinions and speaks of "facts" that go way beyond the evidence or are simply unsupported by any evidence at all.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:27 pm Post subject:

joe_doufu wrote:

ah yes, the young ones. The ones who didn't live long under his rule. Reminds me of young Koreans who think America is evil as well. Wink

He lost? True, but he didn't lose everything. Why couldn't he have done something such as the GLF in Taiwan? He was a dictator over people was he not? Confused

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:30 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Depends on your definition of "successful". Has he achieved anything? Carter is a talker who's only talent is showing up at the right times to make himself look good. He's not a leader of humans.

Ummmm....Habitat for Humanity comes to mind; his work with Ford on various commissions; the requests from dozens of foreign countries for him to come in and observe elections to ensure fairness;

Maybe you don't respect him but the general consensus of millions is that he is a man of integrity and worthy of respect.

But you are entitled to your opinion.

joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:57 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

joe_doufu wrote:

Who is Rush?

Rush Limbaugh: Ideologue-Extraordinaire. Spews conspiracy theories about Ruby Ridge and everything else that get's the extreme right salivating.

Oh, I thought that guy died.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:00 pm Post subject:

Maybe he did. Didn't he have some issue with pain pill addiction or something like that?

joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:06 pm Post subject:

bucheon bum wrote:

joe_doufu wrote:

ah yes, the young ones. The ones who didn't live long under his rule. Reminds me of young Koreans who think America is evil as well. Wink

He lost? True, but he didn't lose everything. Why couldn't he have done something such as the GLF in Taiwan? He was a dictator over people was he not? Confused

There's a holiday in Taiwan called 2/28 day (see wikipedia) that no Taiwanese person is comfortable telling you about.

That holiday commemorates a brutal massacre of Taiwanese people by CKS's government. Taiwanese people are the majority of Taiwan's population, but a couple million "mainlanders" arrived after WWII including CKS and his army when Mao drove him out. The mainlanders quickly assumed the top of the food chain and brutally suppressed the natives. On 2/28/1947, a riot started from a market dispute, and within a few days, the army reacted and tens of thousands of Taiwanese were never heard from again. Wikipedia says 30,000 but I have heard 200,000. The history has been suppressed and Taiwan people are still uncomfortable talking about it.

CKS was not a great or honorable leader. We liked him because he wasn't a communist, and we could pretend he was the legitimate ruler of China.

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