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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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 Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:12 pm Post subject: First definate total of civilian deaths in Iraq: 25,000 |
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Civilian Toll in Iraq Is Placed at Nearly 25,000
By HASSAN M. FATTAH
Published: July 20, 2005
LONDON, July 19 - Almost 25,000 Iraqi civilians were killed in the two years since the United States-led invasion of the country, more than a third by American forces, according to a report released Tuesday that is sure to stir debate.
The report, by a London-based group called Iraq Body Count, is a statistical tally of civilian deaths reported in the news media. In all, the researchers counted 24,865 civilians killed since the invasion of Iraq began in March 2003, almost half of them in Baghdad alone, with another large segment in Falluja.
There is no definitive account of how many civilians have died in Iraq, and the issue has long been contentious. Antiwar campaigners contend that the Bush administration and the Pentagon have deliberately avoided body counts so as to play down the toll the occupation has taken on Iraqis, while supporters of the war question the accuracy of the counts.
Partly as a result, tallies of the Iraqi dead - which have ranged as high as 100,000 in one study, published in October 2004 in The Lancet, the British medical journal - have not been compiled systematically.
Michael E. O'Hanlon, a senior fellow in foreign policy studies at the Brookings Institution who compiles a statistical abstract of Iraq to track its progress, or lack of it, under the occupation, said the Iraq Body Count figures were within the realm of reason. "We've used their data before," he said. "It's probably not too far off, and it's certainly a more serious work than the Lancet report."
According to the new report, American fire accounted for the greatest loss of life in Iraq, about 9,270 civilians, or 37.3 percent of the total. There are no estimates by the American government of civilian deaths at the hands of the American military. Most of those fatalities came during the war, the report stated. The crime wave that has overcome Iraq since the Saddam Hussein government fell was the second leading cause of death, accounting for almost 35.9 percent of the deaths, or 8,935, the report said.
In comparison, insurgent attacks specifically against American-led multinational forces caused only 9.5 percent of the deaths, or 2,353, while attacks by terrorists, whom the authors call "unknown agents," amounted to 11.0 percent of the civilian dead, or 2,731, the report said. It is not clear how the report differentiated between insurgents and terrorists. Iraq Body Count's calculations show the death toll from such violence continuing to rise.
The figures were compiled from more than 10,000 news media reports of civilian deaths. The deaths were painstakingly cross-referenced and reconfirmed across various news media, researchers said. They asserted that the results offered the first full picture of the civilian death toll in the country, down to the number of deaths caused by various weapons.
"We are contributing to the picture of what has happened in Iraq, but we are also showing that a lot is already known," said Hamit Dardagan, a founder of Iraq Body Count and author of the report. "This shows that we don't have to wait to tally up every single death; we can look at the data that's available now."
For example, the researchers say civilian deaths recorded in the second year of the occupation were almost twice as high as they were in the first year. Over half of all civilian deaths involved explosive devices, with airstrikes during the war causing most of those deaths. Children were disproportionately affected by explosive devices, most severely by airstrikes and unexploded ordnance like cluster bombs.
Mr. O'Hanlon said: "There's a lot of data coming out of Iraq, and there are a lot of enterprising journalists out there."
"If you can track all this data and get a ballpark feel," he said, "you can begin to get a viable picture" of civilian deaths.
"This study says that Iraqis have basically accepted becoming the most violent country in the Middle East as a price for becoming the most democratic," he said.
The group did not count deaths that go unreported in the news media, and does not make any estimation for deaths that may have been missed. |
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keithinkorea
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:55 am Post subject: |
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A depressing figure. It may be more, which is even more depressing.
Death is nasty. |
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thebum
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Location: North Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, I'm sure they'd enjoy "democracy" if they were still alive! Too bad eh? |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Because the enemy doesn't wear a uniform I wonder how these figures were arrived at- for example, does Iraq Body Count have a body count for the number of bona fide insugents/combatants killed? Just want to know if the figures are on the up and up. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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Well..more have been killed by insurgents than by the U.S.
And even more would be dead if the old regime was still in power.
No gain without pain. These are the unfortunate accidental victims of a transition to a better Iraq, which the U.S is working hard to build for them. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
Well..more have been killed by insurgents than by the U.S.
And even more would be dead if the old regime was still in power.
No gain without pain. These are the unfortunate accidental victims of a transition to a better Iraq, which the U.S is working hard to build for them. |
| Quote: |
According to the new report, American fire accounted for the greatest loss of life in Iraq, about 9,270 civilians, or 37.3 percent of the total. There are no estimates by the American government of civilian deaths at the hands of the American military. Most of those fatalities came during the war, the report stated. The crime wave that has overcome Iraq since the Saddam Hussein government fell was the second leading cause of death, accounting for almost 35.9 percent of the deaths, or 8,935, the report said.
In comparison, insurgent attacks specifically against American-led multinational forces caused only 9.5 percent of the deaths, or 2,353, while attacks by terrorists, whom the authors call "unknown agents," amounted to 11.0 percent of the civilian dead, or 2,731, the report said. It is not clear how the report differentiated between insurgents and terrorists. Iraq Body Count's calculations show the death toll from such violence continuing to rise. |
11.0 + 9.5 = 20.5
20.5 < 37.3 |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
Well..more have been killed by insurgents than by the U.S.
And even more would be dead if the old regime was still in power.
No gain without pain. These are the unfortunate accidental victims of a transition to a better Iraq, which the U.S is working hard to build for them. |
You're an odd fellow. Half the time you post incredibly ignorant statements and half the time you sound reasonable.
This time, as mith points out, you are definitly the former. |
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Thunndarr
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
Well..more have been killed by insurgents than by the U.S.
And even more would be dead if the old regime was still in power.
No gain without pain. These are the unfortunate accidental victims of a transition to a better Iraq, which the U.S is working hard to build for them. |
| Quote: |
According to the new report, American fire accounted for the greatest loss of life in Iraq, about 9,270 civilians, or 37.3 percent of the total. There are no estimates by the American government of civilian deaths at the hands of the American military. Most of those fatalities came during the war, the report stated. The crime wave that has overcome Iraq since the Saddam Hussein government fell was the second leading cause of death, accounting for almost 35.9 percent of the deaths, or 8,935, the report said.
In comparison, insurgent attacks specifically against American-led multinational forces caused only 9.5 percent of the deaths, or 2,353, while attacks by terrorists, whom the authors call "unknown agents," amounted to 11.0 percent of the civilian dead, or 2,731, the report said. It is not clear how the report differentiated between insurgents and terrorists. Iraq Body Count's calculations show the death toll from such violence continuing to rise. |
11.0 + 9.5 = 20.5
20.5 < 37.3 |
I don't think that was rapier's point. I'm sure he's capable of arithmetic. I believe he said that the 'old regime' would have been worse. Speculation, to be sure, but definitely possible. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I remember seeing a page somewhere that had the average rate per day of people killed over the time of Hussein's regime, but I have no idea where that page went. I think it was something like 80 a day but I could be totally wrong. Memory fails me. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
Well..more have been killed by insurgents than by the U.S.
And even more would be dead if the old regime was still in power.
No gain without pain. These are the unfortunate accidental victims of a transition to a better Iraq, which the U.S is working hard to build for them. |
How do you figure this? While I understand your thoughts I have to wonder how you would compare the current situation to a hypothetical one. Seriously, does anyone have the numbers (as in death tolls) for an Iraq before the US invasion AND without sanctions? |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
Well..more have been killed by insurgents than by the U.S.
And even more would be dead if the old regime was still in power.
No gain without pain. These are the unfortunate accidental victims of a transition to a better Iraq, which the U.S is working hard to build for them. |
How do you figure this? While I understand your thoughts I have to wonder how you would compare the current situation to a hypothetical one. Seriously, does anyone have the numbers (as in death tolls) for an Iraq before the US invasion AND without sanctions? |
The deaths among Iraqis is actually lower than when Saddam was in power
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/20053723.asp
The Civilian Death Toll in Iraq
March 7, 2005
Since Saddam Hussein and his Baath Party were removed from power in 2003, there have been about 1,300 deaths among the coalition forces, and between 20-25,000 for Iraqis. The Iraqi deaths include about 5,000 killed during the 2003 invasion. Of the remainder, about half are Sunni Arabs (most of them Iraqi, plus a few Shia Arabs) killed while fighting coalition forces as terrorists. Another five thousand or so are Iraqis killed by the terrorists, and the remainder are Iraqi civilians caught in the cross fire. The deaths among Iraqis is actually lower than when Saddam was in power. During his three decades of rule, Saddam killed half a million Kurds, and several hundred thousand Shia Arabs (and several thousand Sunni Arabs and Christian Arabs). During the 1990s, Saddam used access to food and medical care as a way to keep the Shia Arabs under control, but this process caused twenty thousand or more excess deaths a year (from disease and malnutrition). Foreign media, especially in Sunni Moslem nations, tend to play with these numbers. That is, they downplay the deaths inflicted by Saddam, inflate those that occurred during the 1990s and blame it on the UN, and greatly inflate the number of Iraqi civilians killed during coalition military operations. But Iraqis on the scene provide more accurate numbers, which are the ones presented here. A lot of the documentation for these stats will come out during the war crimes trials of Saddam and his key aides. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
Well..more have been killed by insurgents than by the U.S.
And even more would be dead if the old regime was still in power.
No gain without pain. These are the unfortunate accidental victims of a transition to a better Iraq, which the U.S is working hard to build for them. |
| Quote: |
According to the new report, American fire accounted for the greatest loss of life in Iraq, about 9,270 civilians, or 37.3 percent of the total. There are no estimates by the American government of civilian deaths at the hands of the American military. Most of those fatalities came during the war, the report stated. The crime wave that has overcome Iraq since the Saddam Hussein government fell was the second leading cause of death, accounting for almost 35.9 percent of the deaths, or 8,935, the report said.
In comparison, insurgent attacks specifically against American-led multinational forces caused only 9.5 percent of the deaths, or 2,353, while attacks by terrorists, whom the authors call "unknown agents," amounted to 11.0 percent of the civilian dead, or 2,731, the report said. It is not clear how the report differentiated between insurgents and terrorists. Iraq Body Count's calculations show the death toll from such violence continuing to rise. |
11.0 + 9.5 = 20.5
20.5 < 37.3 |
My arithmetic says 35.9+9.5+11.0=56.4
56.4>37.3 |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Petty criminal = insurgent? |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| Petty criminal = insurgent? |
I really don't think pickpockets accounted for 8,935 deaths of innocent Iraqi civilians, Mith. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| Not pickpockets, petty kidnappings and murders. Happens all the time now. |
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