|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
 Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:10 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Well, hearing some more background about Stockwell, and hearing that the officers were in plain clothes makes me feel a lot more sorry about the whole situation. It's really a terrible thing.
If the police were distinctly yelling, "Stop, police!" Well, then I feel it's difficult to blame the police for what happened. They'll learn from this situation. Sadly, a man died as a result.
Either way, as someone said, it's the fault of the Moslem terrorists. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I'm not sure I would believe someone in plain clothes if they shouted they were police. And if they were waving a gun, I might bolt for the nearest crowd, hoping they wouldn't fire into it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
waggo
Joined: 18 May 2003
Location: pusan baby!
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I'm not sure I would believe someone in plain clothes if they shouted they were police. And if they were waving a gun, I might bolt for the nearest crowd, hoping they wouldn't fire into it. |
You'd have been shot as well then you dipstick!
Everybody in London knows whats going on at the moment...even the Brazilian plumbers...especially around the tube stations.I bet street crime in London at the moment has dropped dramatically.Apart from getting blown up its probably quite a crime free city at the moment |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
London is in the grop of hysteria, which is understandable, but it is far less understandable by people scattered around the planet over the internet need to be.
A lot of the people commenting here made some pretty ugly remarks on another thread about it.
"I'm very happy that they shot this piece of crap 5 times. "
"The muslim council of Britain, a supposedly 'moderate' organisation, once again shows its true colours. It seems more concerned with the human rights of muslim terrorists than the actions of said terrorists. Whose side are they on exactly?"
"I hope they bury him in a pork coffin."
"Sounds like they caught up with one of the fugitives."
"Meanwhile these scum are going to get theirs"
All indications are that is a big mistake. If the actions of the authorities involved reflect the kind of attitudes I'm seeing in these forums, then there will be more such mistakes.
No sane person would want that.
Last edited by The Bobster on Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| "The muslim council of Britain, a supposedly 'moderate' organisation, once again shows its true colours. It seems more concerned with the human rights of muslim terrorists than the actions of said terrorists. Whose side are they on exactly?" |
I stand by this, as at the time it was assumed by everyone, including the MCB that the man was involved in the suicide bombings. The first reaction of the MCB was to hysterically say that any muslim with a backpack would be shot.
What exactly are the police to do when a man leaves a suspect building, wearing a suspicious overcoat, and after refusing to obey orders runs onto a packed train carriage just days after an attempted suicide bombing?
A tragedy indeed. However, this will inevitably turn into another stick to beat the police with. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| "The muslim council of Britain, a supposedly 'moderate' organisation, once again shows its true colours. It seems more concerned with the human rights of muslim terrorists than the actions of said terrorists. Whose side are they on exactly?" |
I stand by this, as at the time it was assumed by everyone, including the MCB that the man was involved in the suicide bombings. |
In the first few days following the explosion in Federal Building in Oklahoma, it was likewise "assumed by everyone" that the act was performed by muslim extremists. I was in America at that time, and was in fact married to a fine human being of Middle Eastern extraction. It was a touchy few days, and I believe there were some hate crimes that took place in that span of time. It was, of course, a couple of white guys with ties to militia groups who did it.
I guess my point is that a lot of us would be better off waiting until we know the facts.
| Quote: |
| The first reaction of the MCB was to hysterically say that any muslim with a backpack would be shot. |
It's not far off from what actually happened, seems to me. Except that a backpack would not appear to be necessary, nor even, I guess is being a muslim completely required.
Hysterics would appear to be what our side is engaged in, my friend.
| Quote: |
| What exactly are the police to do when a man leaves a suspect building, wearing a suspicious overcoat, and after refusing to obey orders runs onto a packed train carriage just days after an attempted suicide bombing? |
I'm not sure the police were wrong to do what they did, and as for what they are supposed to do, well, one thing that is part of their job is to arrest people and then ask them questions. If this guy had been the perp we thought he was, he would have had some info that would have been very important ... however, I'm not going to criticise the cops because I don't know enough about the circumstances.
But I will point out that insufficient knowledge did not prove any barrier to you and a few others saying some very ugly things here.
| Quote: |
| A tragedy indeed. However, this will inevitably turn into another stick to beat the police with. |
Off hand, I doubt it. But Bitons by and large are very compassionate and thoughtful people, and what I do suspect is that the occasion will induce a certain amount of calm introspection, and hopefully a turning away from the fear-induced absurdities that were in the offing prior to this ... we can hope, in any case. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Bobster wrote: |
All indications are that is a big mistake. If the actions of the authorities involved reflect the kind of attitudes I'm seeing in these forums, then there will be more such mistakes.
No sane person would want that. |
Hey, dumb dumb. This was not a mistake. Irrespective of the bombings, and the attempted bombings this man behaved like the quintessential suicide bomber. His own gross stupidity resulted in his death. Bottom line; If someone behaves in the same way again shoot him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Bobster wrote: |
All indications are that is a big mistake. If the actions of the authorities involved reflect the kind of attitudes I'm seeing in these forums, then there will be more such mistakes.
No sane person would want that. |
Hey, dumb dumb. This was not a mistake. Irrespective of the bombings, and the attempted bombings this man behaved like the quintessential suicide bomber. His own gross stupidity resulted in his death. Bottom line; If someone behaves in the same way again shoot him.
| Quote: |
| Off hand, I doubt it. But Bitons by and large are very compassionate and thoughtful people, and what I do suspect is that the occasion will induce a certain amount of calm introspection, and hopefully a turning away from the fear-induced absurdities that were in the offing prior to this ... we can hope, in any case |
Are you refering to the man who was shot? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| one thing that is part of their job is to arrest people and then ask them questions |
In most cases yes. When you are dealing with suspected suicide bombers you don't really have the luxury of arresting and asking questions do you?
| Quote: |
Quote:
The first reaction of the MCB was to hysterically say that any muslim with a backpack would be shot.
It's not far off from what actually happened, seems to me. |
It's a long way from what actually happened. The MCB seemed to be saying that muslims with backpacks would be shot indiscriminately, which was hysterical nonsense. However, people of 'muslim' appearance with backpacks had better put their hands in the air if told to 'freeze' by police. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| one thing that is part of their job is to arrest people and then ask them questions |
In most cases yes. When you are dealing with suspected suicide bombers you don't really have the luxury of arresting and asking questions do you? |
Luxury or not, what is needed is hard data - intelligence, if you will. All indications are that the very lack of it is what led to the death of Mr de Menezes. Put yourself in the place of this man's family, and look again at the quotes I provided in an earlier post of what people here said about - things that were said before the facts were known.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
Quote:
| Quote: |
| The first reaction of the MCB was to hysterically say that any muslim with a backpack would be shot. |
It's not far off from what actually happened, seems to me. |
It's a long way from what actually happened. |
Well, it is in the sense that I mentioned, that there was no backpack and the man who was shot was not a muslim. Aside from that, it's pretty bang-on, actually ...
| Quote: |
| The MCB seemed to be saying that muslims with backpacks would be shot indiscriminately, which was hysterical nonsense. However, people of 'muslim' appearance with backpacks had better put their hands in the air if told to 'freeze' by police. |
Considering the instance I noted from recent American history (Oklahoma City) that I noted in the previous post, why do you focus on muslim appearance? Is it so far out of the range of credibility that someone, somewhere, in the midst of all this might not look or even be muslim, yet still have had some involvement?
Gwangjuboy
| Quote: |
| This was not a mistake. Irrespective of the bombings, and the attempted bombings this man behaved like the quintessential suicide bomber. His own gross stupidity resulted in his death. Bottom line; If someone behaves in the same way again shoot him. |
Whether there was a mistake or not, is not for you or I to decide. There's an investigation going on, and I guess we will findo out or we will not ... there are questions being raised by the victim's family about whether the police did actually identify themselves as such, or whether they were just running after him with guns and shouting.
This is from The Independent
Why did he run from police when ordered to stop?
Being confronted by three armed plainclothed officers, he could have been frightened and fled. Coming from Brazil, he may have been particularly nervous of armed officers. In the Brazilian state of Sao Paulo, police shot dead 1,470 people in 1992. This fell to 272 in 2001, although half were shot in the back. Although his friends and relatives say he was living legally in Britain, it appears he was here on a student visa, and was working illegally as an electrician. He could have been trying to avoid capture. So far the only details of his final moments come from eyewitness accounts, which are often inaccurate. Until CCTV footage is examined and released, we will not know whether he was challenged and if he did - as described - jump over the ticket barrier and run downstairs.
To be clear : I don't know if the police acted wrongfully, and I'm not inclined to have an opinion until I know more of the facts here. However, a lot of people here said some really ugly stuff at a moment that was far too early for anyone to know the facts.
That kind of bums me out a little. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| why do you focus on muslim appearance? |
Because, around 90% of recent terrorist attacks carried out in the UK, or by 'Britons' abroad have involved men from the subcontinent (mostly Pakistan). The others have been black. Not much point focusing on Japanese tourists or Aussie backpackers all in the name of equality.
When the IRA were bombing the mainland on a regular basis, the police focused their resources on the Irish community. In fact, my cousin was searched at a tube station solely because a police officer overheard his Irish accent. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| why do you focus on muslim appearance? |
Because, around 90% of recent terrorist attacks carried out in the UK, or by 'Britons' abroad have involved men from the subcontinent (mostly Pakistan). |
I've seen the pictures of the man, and Mr Menezes - just curious why you have never mentioned his name once - looks like he could "pass" from someone from that part of the world if he wanted to ... in this case, of course, he did not want to. I don't know the facts, but I suspect he did not know why he was being chased or who the pursuers with guns in their hands were - we'll know when all the CCTV footage has been examined.
So far, I've read nothing from the muslim community leaders in Britain that looks hysterical, though I've read quite a bit posted here on the death of this Brazilian man that does deserve that description. Though you might prefer it were otherwise, there are I think many muslims in Britain who are hard-working and alw-abiding and love their new country - I would wager the vast majority are like this - and yet you will assert that appearance and a few other things might constitute enough to shoot-on-sight ...
Okay, I know that's going to far and maybe misrepresenting you - and yet, here we have a case of a man who is not muslim, not from anywhere near where such people live - he was basically gunned down in front of a huge crowd ... because of his appearance?
And you justify this?
And you justify as well the ugly stuff poisted in these forums by people who didn't know the facts but felt that their emotions were sufficient to warrent them to speak and say such ugly stuff?
Still trying to work it out ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Bobster wrote: |
Whether there was a mistake or not, is not for you or I to decide. There's an investigation going on, and I guess we will findo out or we will not ... there are questions being raised by the victim's family about whether the police did actually identify themselves as such, or whether they were just running after him with guns and shouting.
|
If this man vaulted a subway turnstile, and refused to co-operate with the police against a backdrop of repeated attacks against our capital of late that resulted in huge numbers of deaths he was stupid. The onus isn't on the MET to understand gun deaths in Sau Paulo; the onus is on this foreigner to respect local laws, and co-operate with police to the fullest extent possible. So far, by all accounts this man behaved an extremely stupid manner, at the worst possible time.
| Quote: |
| To be clear : I don't know if the police acted wrongfully, and I'm not inclined to have an opinion until I know more of the facts here. However, a lot of people here said some really ugly stuff at a moment that was far too early for anyone to know the facts. |
So far, everything points to this man having behaved liked a moron. Should numerous eye witness accounts prove to have been false I will withdraw my remarks. Until such proof is forthcoming, I stand by every word. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
All indications are that is a big mistake. If the actions of the authorities involved reflect the kind of attitudes I'm seeing in these forums, then there will be more such mistakes.
No sane person would want that. |
Hey, dumb dumb. This was not a mistake. Irrespective of the bombings, and the attempted bombings this man behaved like the quintessential suicide bomber. His own gross stupidity resulted in his death. Bottom line; If someone behaves in the same way again shoot him. |
I am absolutely amazed to see you write this. You weren't there. He was a foreigner in a foreign land. Put yourself in his shoes, perhaps not difficult to do, being an expatriate. A bunch of probably pretty menacing looking Koreans, in a very dodgy part of town, point guns at you and yell at you in their language, to stop. And maybe you are carrying a couple of grand your pocket, as people in the building trade generally do. I genuinely don't think I would be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt if I wan't sure.
I do not criticize the police for their actions, but to call the dead guy stupid I believe is way beneath you. It's just a horrible accident. You surprise me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Butterfly wrote: |
| I do not criticize the police for their actions, but to call the dead guy stupid I believe is way beneath you. It's just a horrible accident. You surprise me. |
Why is it you constantly criticise those who regale the board with the negative experiences in Korea, and often beat the "respect local customs" drum, but in the case of your own country beat the "empathise with the foreigner" drum in a time of great difficulty? Indeed, in all my time on this board I have never seen you empathise with foreigners in Korea. I am amazed that you engage in such a double standard ridden practice. If the numerous eye witness accounts prove correct, then I reiterate; he was a moron. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
