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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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 Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| gdimension wrote: |
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| Believe it or not, some Muslim women are happier dressed like that in public than in designer dresses and make-up. Not all, but some. |
I'm far from an expert on Muslim dress-codes, but how would we know that some women are happier dressed like that? For the record, I agree with you - I think that some must prefer to be clothed in that way, but....
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By asking them? 
FWIW I know a couple of Western women who dress plainly or in clothing sold as male, too. Certainly I know women who wouldn't be seen dead in designer dresses and make-up who aren't at all muslim.
When such a dress code is forced on women, it's bad. When it's their choice out of respect for their religion (like a Sikh male's turban or a Jewish boy's skullcap) I don't see the problem.
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I understand wearing traditional clothing was the law under Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, but what about in other Islamic countries? What is the situation for Muslims living in the West? Is there more leeway?
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It's still the law in some - and in others, like Iran, it's not so much the clothing that's important as what it covers (i.e. everything). In places like Turkey you'd have a hard time telling apart the clothing of Westerners and locals.
Maybe BB has more info about the rest of the Middle East - I'm not so hot on there.
EDIT: Oh, he beat me to it...
In the West, any pressure to cover up would come from family and friends.
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And what about familial and societal pressure (as opposed to laws and rules from the government/mosques)? Could your average Muslim female in **country** wear what she wants and still be considered a true Muslim? I'm guessing the answer again depends on what country we are talking about...
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My point is that sometimes "what she wants" IS the religious wear. If it isn't... well, every woman has to follow her own path. For some, that is made extremely difficult by the religious leanings of the family (as happens with most religions). For others, it's easier.
As with so often with Islam, it's incredibly hard to generalise. Not that that stops people trying.. 
Last edited by hypnotist on Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Oops.
Last edited by hypnotist on Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| rok_the-boat wrote: |
| View the initial post in the light of the fact that Bush is struggling to escape the WMD fake purpose of the war and now trying to lay down foundation for removing a bad guy and replacing him with DEMOCRACY. |
And please wake up to the reality of what has taken place in the Middle East.
A foreign power entered their land, overcame one of their more powerful nations in short period of time, changed the government to a friendly one, and has succeeded in recruiting thousands of individuals to join the new army of police officers who will police their own country in the future -- based on the new pro-US government.
All in just a few years.
Give Iraq a chance. It will be decades before true democracy takes root and shows its benefits. And we all know it would be happening quicker if it weren't for Iran/Syrian-funded insurgents weren't blowing up every public works project they could find.
Growing pains are inevitable.
Overall, this has been a massive embarrassment for the rest of the anti-US Middle Eastern world, and it is taking its toll on their own governments as well as local citizens demand more of their own freedoms. |
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Infoseeker
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Lurking somewhere near Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
Islam has always placed a high value on women's rights. they can have their own careers and independence, and a wide choice of fashionable clothes to wear. They also get to realise and express their sexuality, and individuality. I'm sure they're quite happy.
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Historically, you were far better off being a women in a Muslim society than in a Christian society. On average, muslim women were accorded far better rights than Christian women.
It's only in the last century or so that western women have caught up and surpassed their muslim equivalents. My great great grandmother was the property of her father until she became the property of her husband. All her children were the property of her husband and liable to be taken from her in the event of a divorce. He could beat the bloody hell out of her and do what he liked with her short of killing her. It was very rare for women to inherit (just read Jane Austen if you want to know the worry that caused women), but muslim women were due a certain inheritance when their parents passed on.
All in all, if I had to be born as a woman 200 years ago, I'd prefer to be a (non Wahhabi) muslim woman than a Christian one. |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Infoseeker wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
Islam has always placed a high value on women's rights. they can have their own careers and independence, and a wide choice of fashionable clothes to wear. They also get to realise and express their sexuality, and individuality. I'm sure they're quite happy.
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Historically, you were far better off being a women in a Muslim society than in a Christian society. On average, muslim women were accorded far better rights than Christian women.
It's only in the last century or so that western women have caught up and surpassed their muslim equivalents. My great great grandmother was the property of her father until she became the property of her husband. All her children were the property of her husband and liable to be taken from her in the event of a divorce. He could beat the bloody hell out of her and do what he liked with her short of killing her. It was very rare for women to inherit (just read Jane Austen if you want to know the worry that caused women), but muslim women were due a certain inheritance when their parents passed on.
All in all, if I had to be born as a woman 200 years ago, I'd prefer to be a (non Wahhabi) muslim woman than a Christian one. |
And in all of these years, how much has changed for these women? |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| A foreign power entered their land, overcame one of their more powerful nations in short period of time, changed the government to a friendly one, |
friendly? Isn't there a LARGE section of the population who don't really consider them overly friendly or tolerant?
Better than saddam sure, but "friendly" may be too loose a word.
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| And in all of these years, how much has changed for these women? |
perhaps the point is not about "change". |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| All in all, if I had to be born as a woman 200 years ago, I'd prefer to be a (non Wahhabi) muslim woman than a Christian one. |
Aren't you more concerned about the state of women in muslim countries now? |
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Infoseeker
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Lurking somewhere near Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| All in all, if I had to be born as a woman 200 years ago, I'd prefer to be a (non Wahhabi) muslim woman than a Christian one. |
Aren't you more concerned about the state of women in muslim countries now? |
Which muslim countries are you talking about? There are many muslim countries. For example, women in Tunisia and Libya enjoy a fair bit of freedom and have a relatively easy time.
Long before 911, in the late nineties, I was very concerned with the plight of the Afghanistan women under the Taleban, and lent my time and money to RAWA (Revolutionary Association and of the Women of Afghanistan) and raising awareness about that. Of course, at that time no-one much really gave a toss and Blair and Clinton (and later Bush) were turning a very blind eye to it all..
Are you really very bothered about the plight of women in various countries? I seriously doubt it. It's not just Muslim women having a rough time, there are many Hindu, Christian and Buddhist women living under brutal male subjugation. I doubt that you really care about that, and I doubt that you've ever lent your support to a women's charity or battered women's refuge in your own country.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that the foul treatment of women by certain sectors of the world muslim population is just a nice handy stick to beat all muslims with, and help you feel nice and mighty self-righteous. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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