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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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 Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| hypnotist wrote: |
Derby, small?  I grew up just outside Nottingham, in a market town I can assure you was small. Derby is a city - not as large as Nottingham but still with a good 220,000 people. |
Yes, small. |
Well, it's around 8 or 9 times larger than the town I grew up in and nearly 500 times larger than the village I went to school in. I guess it's a matter of perspective *shrug* |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| hypnotist wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| hypnotist wrote: |
| Derby, small? I grew up just outside Nottingham, in a market town I can assure you was small. Derby is a city - not as large as Nottingham but still with a good 220,000 people. |
Yes, small. |
Well, it's around 8 or 9 times larger than the town I grew up in and nearly 500 times larger than the village I went to school in. I guess it's a matter of perspective *shrug* |
London is very big, Birmingham is big, Nottingham is quite big, Derby is small, Ashbourne is tiny. |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| hypnotist wrote: |
| Yep, I do. Would I welcome it? No, absolutely not - we have a justice system to deal with such matters for us. |
I reiterate; I wonder what percentage of those muslims who thought attacks against Britain were justified would also welcome them. Gleaning all the information from the polls, and coupling it with their general lack of patriotism I would put it at 90% or more. But hell, they only think the attacks are justified so don't get your gruds in a twist over it.  |
In other words, you're pulling a figure out of your arse.
Arguing in the abstract, if country A invaded country B I would see it as justified for people in country B to launch attacks at country A's military installations (not their civilian populations - although you might expect collateral damage). Would you?
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| Let's face it, even if we throw you the brownie points for digging up a link which showed some discrepancies in my source, your link wasn't exactly evidence of a fully intergrated, moderate muslim community was it? |
It's not evidence either way of a moderate muslim community. I've already agreed that the Muslim community is far from fully integrated, so put that little strawman back in its box...
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| The way the poll is couched, it's very difficult to know whether the question was meant to imply "under any circumstance" or "in Afghanistan" |
I think we need to see the original poll to know this whether this is the case. |
Bingo.
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| But considering that 60% of muslims in Britain thought that blaming Bin Laden's Al Qaeda for 9/11 was unjustified it wouldn't suprise me if 98% of muslims wouldn't fight for the US's closest ally; Britain. Those muslims who thought that blaming Bin Laden's Al Qaeda for 9/11 was unjustified are right up there with holocaust deniers. |
These days, it's up there. It did take a little time for the truth and proof to come out over 9/11.
Are Americans who blame Iraq for 9/11 also as bad as holocaust deniers?
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| Perhaps more telling is that 91% thought that Afghanistan was a war between the West and Islam. Again, that they believe that is a failure on both sides. |
A failure on our side? Geez you will have to explain that one to me. Maybe we should have kept the Taliban in power and let them have a stab at a few more terorist attacks. You and your ilk love to tell us that the majority of muslims condemn extreme forms of Islam, but when we remove a brutal and extreme Islamist government from power which wanted to kill innocent westerners en masse should we suddenly excuse their misgivings? Hell, if these muslims condemn extremist islamic groups what's the problem with destroying a particuarly dreadful one? |
Do me a favour - the US didn't give a *beep* about it being brutal or extreme. They'd openly courted the Taliban enough times previously. They cared about getting their hands on Al Qaeda members.
That's not to say they weren't right to oversee the downfall of that disgusting regime, but it'd be nice if they a) gathered international support (particularly amongst Muslims) beforehand, and b) left behind something approaching a sustainable country instead of buggering off to bomb Iraq.
It was also the first run of the bomb-the-*beep*-out-of-anything-that-moves air campaign that has since featured in Iraq. That, whilst perhaps a good way to win wars, is not a good way to win hearts and minds. Neither is leaving the country in the hands of a bunch of criminal human rights abusers who were in power before the Taliban.
The US had massive sympathy, including from most of the Muslim world, after 9/11. How did that turn into such opposition to the attack on Afghanistan? Perhaps because it was seen as a retaliatory attack on Islam?
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| Is there anything barring muslims joining the armed forces or embarking on a career in the police force in the UK? |
Institutional racism? Mutual mistrust between the two sides? No, there's no official policy stopping them, but we could do more to encourage them to join.
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| I still think it's scaremongering to link those two figures to come up with some huge number who would be willing to undertake terrorist acts in the UK. |
Please refer me to a quote of mine where I have remotely indicated the presence of huge numbers of muslims who are prepared to undertake terrorist acts in the UK. |
| You, in response to my figure of 200 muslims prepared to undertake terrorist acts in the UK wrote: |
| Try 10% of British muslims who think that more terror attacks on the UK are justified, and that's even before we get around to those who believe that British troops in Iraq should be targeted by insurgents over there. |
Your implication is clearly that 10% of British muslims are prepared to, rather than 200. If that wasn't what you meant, perhaps you should have said so?
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| However, my response to these worrying figures is to lobby for greater integration efforts (by both sides), not to increase the distance and mistrust between the two sides |
Greater intergration efforts by both sides? Pray tell, what on earth do you think we should be doing? |
Helping them start businesses and find employment - particularly Muslim graduates, whose unemployment rate is way higher than of the population as a whole. Being more culturally sensitive (as I've said before - where their customs don't hurt anyone, allowing them freedom to engage in them would be a small step). That doesn't mean the wholesale Islamification of the UK.
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| Sure, but the numbers you were disputing did not relate to what you were talking about, and it is disingenuous for you to suggest that somehow they do. |
Please direct me to a quote of mine where I was refering to the number of muslims prepared to carry out terrorist attacks on the UK. |
See above, where you directly referred to the number I'd given of such.
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| That's alright then. I sympathised with the aims of Adolf Hitler. Don't worry though because I don't sympathise with the SS. What sort of a paragraph is that? Are you arguing for me? |
Jings, you really don't have a clue, do you? (Setting aside the fact that the SS were directly following the orders of Hitler, which completely invalidates your utterly weak counter-example...)
The terrorists wanted (amongst other things) the Allied forces out of Iraq. Many people in the West do, too. Guess what? That means they sympathise with the aims of the terrorists. Many Irish people (and Americans...) wanted a united Ireland, not all supported the violence of the IRA. Nevertheless, they supported the aims of that group of terrorists.
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| Your evidence has been limited to a few disputes about semantics that did little to bolster your position anyway. Later, you were bringing in your muslim buddies who are Joe citizens into the battle zone, and after they made an appearance you admitted right here on this thread the number of muslims who sympathise with the aims of terrorists maybe indeed high. Welcome to the winning team. |
You seem not to understand the phrase "to sympathise with the aims of", misunderstanding it to mean "to sympathise with". But never mind.
We're all agreed on this thread that Islamic extremism is dangerous and needs to be fought. Rapier takes the "all Muslims are extremists" line and I don't see any way to debate with him. With you and bigverne, it's more a matter of the extent of and support for that extremism we disagree on. My heartfelt opinion is that, were you to visit a few more mosques and talk to a few more muslims, your attitudes would shift. I can't prove that with statistics (though as you've noticed I certainly will seek to debunk tenuous arguments based on flawed interpretations of statistics).
Maybe however, Hank is right and in trying to be leftish and engage and not judge you guys, I'm just deluding myself that you can be open-minded towards Islam and want to solve the problems with that community in an ultimately inclusive way.
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Hank Scorpio
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| hypnotist wrote: |
Oh, come on. I've already made it clear that I do not believe the fact they went to fight a war in Afghanistan necessarily makes them terrorists upon their return to the UK. |
The Soviet Union withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989, cousin. The only war fought between that time and the US invasion was between the Northern Alliance and the Taliban, along with their military wing, Al Quaeda.
If you're talking about people who've been to Bin Laden's camps, the vast majority of them who are now living in the UK probably went through after 1989. These are hardcore, Wahabist, fundamentalist, death to the Jews and crusaders terrorists. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| if country A invaded country B I would see it as justified for people in country B to launch attacks at country A's military installations |
But people in 'country B' did not launch attacks against 'country A'. Some citizens of country A launched attacks against their own country. And some people in country A think that such treasonous attacks are 'justified'. That is unacceptable, however you try and phrase it.
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| How did that turn into such opposition to the attack on Afghanistan? Perhaps because it was seen as a retaliatory attack on Islam? |
I think you need to get it into your head that for many muslims, any attack, on any muslim nation, for whatever reason, is seen as 'an attack on Islam'. So, really, who cares what they think?
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| Being more culturally sensitive (as I've said before - where their customs don't hurt anyone, allowing them freedom to engage in them would be a small step). |
Muslims already have freedom to practice their religion and customs. What more can we do exactly, and how would this combat extremism? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| particularly Muslim graduates, whose unemployment rate is way higher than of the population as a whole. |
"76% of Muslim graduates of working age are employed, compared to 87% of graduates overall."
Not exactly way higher. Moreover, such figures are hardly exact. They do not differentiate between the quality of universities attended, or A level scores. Nevertheless, it's not a huge gap.
http://www.therundown.co.uk/news/graduates/1122912104 |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:03 am Post subject: |
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The simple fact is that Islam does not fit the requirements of the 21st century.
muhammad's teachings-his orders to fight any non believers, the whole female circumcision thing, the honor killings etc etc are a throwback to the 7th century. It is a cult that was designed to bolster and fortify a militant political power- not a philosophy of tolerance and co-existence.
Christian morality on the other hand has a far more timeless, undated feel, not dependent on physical imperialistic expansion but on an inner spiritual awakening. Jesus was not a tactical military general trying to enforce submission.
The fact that islamic education in the west focusses and stresses a return to these "pure' values is totally incompatible with civilisation 1500 years later. We cannot allow ourselves to be bombed back to the stone age by the use of 21st c weapons.
Of course its hard for immigrants from unsophisticated sharia countries to accept that in the west we've moved on from stonings and beheadings. I've seen recent muslim immigrants in Australia utterly eye-poppingly bewildered at the sight of western women in bikinis, enjoying their equal status, celebrating their sexuality and freedoms etc. Its hard for them to deal with- even talking to women caused them huge difficulties.
If islam could perform a vast surgical removal of its many offensive, limiting, and hate-inciting passages, a general makeover, it might have a chance at a new PR, an adaption to modern times. In its current formula, it is holding down vast parts of the world in oppression, backwardness and slavery. why do you think 350M muslims have been unable to defeat 5M jews in a corner of desert? or why does the muslim world boast no prestigious universities/centres of learning, or any sort of advancement? because they are still thinking and living in the dark ages. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| If islam could perform a vast surgical removal of its many offensive and hate-inciting passages |
Impossible. The Koran is the last, immutable word of God, and is therefore unchangeable. To even propose such an idea would be met with charges of apostasy. Even 'moderate' muslims do not argue with this. Some muslims, who do argue for a more nuanced interpretation in the Koran, unfortunately represent a lunatic fringe. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:45 am Post subject: |
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Tuesday August 9, 01:49 PM
Hate Preacher Flees UK For Mid East
The radical Muslim cleric Omar Bakri Mohammed, who faced possible treason charges in the UK, has left Britain for the Middle East.Syrian-born Bakri sparked outrage when he refused to condemn the July 7 terror attacks on London and the failed bombings on July 21.The spiritual head of the extremist al Muhajiroun group - which is due to be banned under new anti-terror laws - claimed it is "God-forbidden" for Muslims to inform police about terror plots in the UK.
He also said they have a "duty" to fight British troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.
"I am going to return back in four weeks unless the Government say we are not welcome, because my family is in the UK," he said.
Bakri told BBC Radio he knew of no future planned attacks but that even if he did, Islamic law would forbid him from informing the police. |
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yemanja
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
Bakri told BBC Radio he knew of no future planned attacks but that even if he did, Islamic law would forbid him from informing the police. |
I bet he'd inform his kids:
"Don't catch the bus today, it's such a nice day for a walk" |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:46 am Post subject: |
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[quote="hypnotist"]
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| hypnotist wrote: |
| Yep, I do. Would I welcome it? No, absolutely not - we have a justice system to deal with such matters for us. |
...That's not to say they weren't right to oversee the downfall of that disgusting regime, but it'd be nice if they a) gathered international support (particularly amongst Muslims) beforehand, and b) left behind something approaching a sustainable country instead of buggering off to bomb Iraq.
It was also the first run of the bomb-the-*beep*-out-of-anything-that-moves air campaign that has since featured in Iraq. That, whilst perhaps a good way to win wars, is not a good way to win hearts and minds. Neither is leaving the country in the hands of a bunch of criminal human rights abusers who were in power before the Taliban.
The US had massive sympathy, including from most of the Muslim world, after 9/11. How did that turn into such opposition to the attack on Afghanistan? Perhaps because it was seen as a retaliatory attack on Islam?...
[.
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I'd just like to respond to this part of your post here. No it was not the first "bomb the beep-out-of-anything-that-moves. Clinton did it to the Serbs a few years back.
As for opposition many countries supported the U.S. attack on Afghanistan. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Clinton did it to the Serbs a few years back. |
-Thus betraying his own allies, partitioning a country, causing a nightmarish ethnic cleansing/refugee problem and furthering the advance of islam in eastern Europe. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
Tuesday August 9, 01:49 PM
Hate Preacher Flees UK For Mid East
The radical Muslim cleric Omar Bakri Mohammed, who faced possible treason charges in the UK, has left Britain for the Middle East.Syrian-born Bakri sparked outrage when he refused to condemn the July 7 terror attacks on London and the failed bombings on July 21.The spiritual head of the extremist al Muhajiroun group - which is due to be banned under new anti-terror laws - claimed it is "God-forbidden" for Muslims to inform police about terror plots in the UK.
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Just thought the red ink could further illuminate the important words that were an essential part of the quote that rapier chose to castigate ALL of Islam, rather than the radical, hateful, treasonous fringe segments of it ... |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:04 am Post subject: |
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I really don't think Muslims have anything to worry about in britain. the increase in racist attacks amounts to little more than the odd stare on the subway...the worst racist backlash since Islamic terrorists killed 62 has been an incident of someone shouting at a woman while she carried her grocery shopping.
Racist attacks rise after terror bombings
By Pete Henshaw
http://www.wansteadandwoodfordguardian.co.uk/news/londonbombings/display.var.619311.0.racist_attacks_rise_after_terror_bombings.php
IT is feared that the number of racist incidents in Redbridge has risen since the London terror attacks.
While no official figures for the period since July 7 have been published, the Redbridge Race Equality Council (RREC) has been hearing of a higher than usual number of incidents, some of which have seen offenders making reference to the attacks.
The concerns were raised at a meeting of the Redbridge Police Community Consultative Group by RREC officer David Landau.
Mr Landau said: "There have been ten to 15 incidents that are in the aftermath of the bombs. Some are very definite, some are someone who has been harassed in the past. Things have quietened down, but when she has been out people have shouted at her." |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| This is good news. It doesn't really go far enought though. We should be closing down mosques and only allowing government licensed mosques to operate. It's time to really close in on the muslim community, and bring it crashing down to earth with a real thump. Further, British citizens who refuse to condemn terrorist acts against out nation should be subject to extremely lengthy terms in specially built prisons owing to the fact that they cant be deported. Bring the bastards down. |
This is good news. It doesn't really go far enough though. We should be closing down hakwons and only allowing government licensed hakwons to operate. It's time to really close in on the foreigner community, and bring it crashing down to earth with a real thump.......Bring the bastards down.
A bit over the top in either case wouldn't you say? But it serves to make the below point.
Does the entire Muslim community deserve to suffer for the acts of the extremists? Even those Muslims who do condem the attacks? And how would you find out? Would there be special teams prowling the street asking them "Are you a illegal teacher..." Whoops sorry I meant "Do you support the terror attacks?" |
Yowsah, and I never thought I would be reaching out my hand to TUM, but I can't recall ever seeing a post that approached this lucidity. Not from him, and part of me still wonders if he might have loaned his password out to someone more clear-thinking than the guy I used to fight with so often.
No, I will not subtract from this ... truth is, we've had enough feuds that he deserves my statement now: either he cleverly hid some portion of good sense from me in the past, or he recently acquired it without my having been around to see it happen ...
Yeah, I know that ain't anything close to conciliation, but it's a darn better than a half dozen people around here deserve. So, he'll have to accept it, or not.
The surprise to see him post his remains, however, and I like these kinds of surprises. |
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