Korean Job Discussion Forums

[HardyandTiny]

In the 1980's many of the students at my university were "East Asian", and they protested that the term "Oriental" was derogatory since it�s based on the idea that Rome is the CENTER OF THE WORLD and everything to Rome's east is Oriental. My university complied and discontinued the use of the word and started to slowly and reasonably transition away from materials that used the term.
I then arrived in Korea in the early 90s and found the word freely used by Koreans to name restaurants, companies, etc. When I asked Koreans if they consider it a "bad" word they had no idea what I was talking about and said that Korea was simply part of The Orient. To this day I see the term used freely, even by the younger, somewhat anti-western, generation.
Is the term derogatory?

[little mixed girl]

...

[The Bobster]

Good point.

[gang ah jee]

A Korean friend of mine who was living in London called herself 'oriental' meaning north-east rather than south asian.

[Corporal]

Sometimes I call Asians Orientals, but only by occident.

[HardyandTiny]

[Gord]

"Oriental" appear in the Internet 4.8 million times according to Google.

"East Asia" racks up 1.5 million

Judge from that what you will about usage. Though I fail to see how oriental can possibly be viewed as a bad word, especially since it's derived from "The Orient". Maybe "Orientian" would make people happy.

Hmm... "Orientian" gets nine hits on Google. Bizarre.

[richinkorea]

I'm not sure where I heard or read this but it was with some authority and basically goes along with little mixed girl was saying.

People are asian. Things are oriental.

[Soju erner]

As an asian (Korean-American) I would agree with little mixed girls assessment. I guess I would prefer the sound of asian studies instead of Oriental, not sure why really. But mostly, I think of oriental as in oriental rugs. I'm not a rug. Just MHO.

SE

[HardyandTiny]

[dogbert]

[On the other hand]

It's a bit of a red herring to debate the etymology of the word to determine if its offensive or not. I don't think the word "oriental" is offensive because it reflects a Roman-centric view of the world. Otherwise, "eastern religions" would be considered an offensive term, as would the mere use of the word "western" to mean Europe/N America/Australia.
Rather, I think the word MIGHT be considered offensive because it was in widespread usage when racist ideas against Asians were common, and was often used to express those ideas. Take, by way of an illustration, the word "Jap", widely considered a slur against the Japanese. Etymologically, it is pretty much the same deal as "Brit", "Aussie", or Canuck", words generally not viewed as offensive, even by the British, Australians, or Canadians themselves. The difference is that these words were not used by racists to describe members of the relevant nationalities, while "Jap" was in widespread usage at the time when there was a lot of hostility against the Japanese, ie. the World War II era. So, many people associate the use of that word exclusively with racist sentiment.
I'm not entirely sure as to how exactly "oriental" was used in the past, though I am aware that it was in common use at the time when racist opinions about the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, etc etc were quite respectable, and I think this might have something to do with the fact some people consider it offensive today. As for the fact that many of our students don't consider it objectionable, this seems to me irrelelvant, as most of them are probably not well-versed in the history of racist terminology in Europe and N America.

[HardyandTiny]

[gang ah jee]

OTOH and tinyhardy make excellent points. personally I don't use the word except ironically. I'm trying to remember my studies on Edward Said here. The history of the discourse of 'occident' (rational, material, known, pure) vs 'orient' (sensual, spiritual, corrupt, mysterious) is very pertinent. The word 'orient' itself has been part of a discourse that has served to hinder understanding of asia and as a tool of colonialism.

Also the word is so vague as to be almost useless. The 'orient' is larger than what we usually call asia.

[The King of Kwangju]

Here's what the Oxford English Dictionary says about "oriental." Doesn't sound so offensive to me (forgive the long post):

1. Belonging to, or situated in, that part or region of the heavens in which the sun rises; of or in the east, eastern, easterly; spec. in Astrol. said of a heavenly body when in the eastern part of the sky, esp. of a planet when seen in the east before sunrise (or, by extension, when seen before sunrise in any part of the sky).

c1391 CHAUCER Astrol. I. �5 Whiche lyne..is cleped the Est lyne, or elles the lyne Orientale. 1590 SPENSER F.Q. I. v. 2 The golden orientall gate Of..heaven gan to open..And Phoebus..Came dauncing forth. 1646 SIR T. BROWNE Pseud. Ep. 305 His [the sun's] ascendent and orientall radiations. 1647 LILLY Chr. Astrol. xix. 114 To be Orientall is no other thing then to rise before the . 1794 [see OCCIDENTAL A. 1]. 1835 ZADKIEL App. to Lilly's Chr. Astrol. 340 Planets found between the fourth house and the mid~heaven, rising, are in the eastern half of the figure, and said to be oriental.



2. Belonging to or situated in the east of a country or place, or of the earth; eastern. Obs.

c1528 R. THORNE to Hen. VIII in Hakluyt Voy. (1589) 251 All the Indies which we call Orientall. 1576 TURBERV. Venerie 26 A kennell ought to be placed in some orientall parte of a house. 1610 WILLET Hexapla Daniel 67 The diuision of the Romane Empire into the Occidentall and Orientall. 1669 GALE Crt. Gentiles I. I. xii. 81 Mount Hermon..the most oriental part of al Canaan.



3. spec. Belonging to, found in, or characteristic of, the countries or regions lying to the east of the Mediterranean or of the ancient Roman empire; belonging to south-western Asia, or Asiatic countries generally; also, belonging to the east of Europe, or of Christendom (as the Oriental Empire, or Church); Eastern.

c1477 CAXTON Jason 53 In the parties orientall is an ile. a1540 BARNES Wks. (1573) 365/1 Priests in ye orientall Church. 1586 MARLOWE 1st Pt. Tamburl. III. iii, The Persian fleet..Sailing along the oriental sea, Have fetch'd about the Indian continent. 1630 R. BRATHWAIT Eng. Gentlem. (1641) 143 The Alexandrian and all the Orientall Histories. 1679 SIR P. RICAUT Pres. State Grk. Ch. Pref., The four Oriental Patriarchs. 1712 ADDISON Spect. No. 512 5 A Turkish tale, which I do not like the worse for that little Oriental extravagance which is mixed with it. 1777 SIR W. JONES Poems Pref. 12 A comparison between the Oriental and Italian poetry. 1815 ELPHINSTONE Acc. Caubul (1842) I. 253 The Pushtoo..is..not unpleasing to an ear accustomed to Oriental tongues.



b. In names of natural products, diseases, etc. occurring specially in the East; as oriental alabaster, arbutus, hyacinth, plane-tree, etc., oriental leprosy; oriental poppy, a perennial poppy, Papaver orientale, with large scarlet flowers, native to western Asia; oriental sore, an ulcerous skin-disease occurring in the East, also called Aleppo boil, Aleppo ulcer, etc. (See also 4.)

1578 LYTE Dodoens II. xlviii. 206 The Oriental Hyacinthes do flower before the common sort. 1664 EVELYN Kal. Hort., Jan. in Sylva etc. (1729) 192 Oriental Jacinth, Levantine Narcissus. 1731 P. MILLER Gardeners Dict. s.v. Papaver. Papaver; Orientale... Very rough Oriental Poppy, with a large Flower. 1756-7 tr. Keysler's Trav. (1760) II. 428 A very grand urn of oriental alabaster. 1803 Med. Jrnl. IX. 564 The oriental leprosy, of which Egypt seems to have been the native land. 1878 T. BRYANT Pract. Surg. I. 173 The Oriental sore seems to be due to the use of brackish hard well-water. 1882 Garden 8 Apr. 230/3 The large Oriental Poppy. 1963 W. BLUNT Of Flowers & Village 139, I think the oriental poppy..is the most exciting of them all.



c. oriental stitch: a long straight stitch tied down with a short diagonal stitch in the centre.

c1890 Weldon's Pract. Needlew. VI. No. 68. 6 Oriental stitch..closely resembles herringbone in the method of working, and forms a solid plait upon the surface of the material. 18.. Pract. Jrnl. Decorative Needlework [Manchester] No. 12. 14 If the design is to be worked solidly I would suggest the oriental stitch. 1899 W. G. P. TOWNSEND Embroidery vi. 98 A sort of Oriental or herring-bone in alternate colours. 1900 DAY & BUCKLE Art in Needlework 66 Oriental-stitch, sometimes called �Antique-stitch�, is a stitch in three strokes, just as feather-stitch is a stitch in four.



d. Other Special Combs.: oriental carpet, rug: a hand-knotted carpet or rug made to one of various designs in the Orient; a carpet or rug made to a similar design elsewhere; oriental Jew, a Jewish person from the Middle or Far East, esp. from Yemen, Ethiopia, Iraq, or India; Oriental languages, Eastern languages; these as a subject of university study; oriental-looking ppl. adj.; Oriental Lowestoft: name given to oriental porcelain erron. thought to have been made or decorated at Lowestoft, England; see sense B. 4.

1868 C. L. EASTLAKE Hints Household Taste 267/2 Oriental carpets. 1894 Country Gentlemen's Catal. 114 Oriental carpets and rugs. In Selected Designs and Colourings, Imported direct. 1972 Guardian 8 Sept. 11/5 You'll find an Aladdin's cave crammed full of authentic, handmade Oriental and Persian carpets.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1938 R. T. FEIWEL No Ease in Zion xxi. 298 One-fifth of Tel Aviv consists of Oriental Jews. 1961 L. FINKELSTEIN Jews II. xxv. 1179 Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors,..appealed greatly to the imagination of the Oriental Jew. 1968 MRS. L. B. JOHNSON White House Diary 7 Feb. (1970) 628 Some interesting excerpts: Between 60 and 65 percent of the people of Israel are �Oriental� Jews.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1822 M. EDGEWORTH Let. 23 Jan. (1971) 334 We have just walked to see Hertford College... There are eight professorstwo for classical literaturethree Oriental languages, [etc.]. 1970 M. KELLY Spinifex i. 23, I went up to Cambridge, doing Oriental Languages. 1972 �J. BELL� Death of Poison-Tongue i. 8, I have come to Polford to do Oriental languages.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1869 �MARK TWAIN� Innoc. Abr. viii. 79 A ragged, oriental-looking negro. 1964 P. F. ANSON Bishops at Large viii. 281 This long-bearded, oriental-looking prelate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1866 W. CHAFFERS Marks Pott. & Porc. (ed. 2) 317 There is such a peculiarity in the form and quality of the Lowestoft porcelain that we are surprised any one at all conversant with..collections of china, could ever mistake it for Oriental.] 1949 G. SAVAGE Ceramics for Collector ii. 41 The former belongs to the �Oriental Lowestoft� or �East Indian China� group. 1971 L. A. BOGER Dict. World Pott. & Porc. 67/1 It [sc. Chinese Lowestoft] is also called Chinese Export Porcelain and Oriental Lowestoft. 1974 SAVAGE & NEWMAN Illustr. Dict. Ceramics 208 Oriental Lowestoft, an erroneous term, first given currency by W. Chaffers.., for the enormous quantity of porcelain made in the 18th century in China for export to Europe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1881 C. C. HARRISON Woman's Handiwork III. 138 Oriental rugs are so generally used. 1931 A. U. DILLEY (title) Oriental rugs and carpets. 1966 M. G. EBERHART Witness at Large (1967) vii. 95 The wide hall upstairs had faded oriental rugs placed at spots almost sure to trip anybody. 1976 J. VAN DE WETERING Corpse on Dike ii. 20 A table, covered with a thick oriental rug.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



4. Of pearls and precious stones, and hence (formerly) of other things: = ORIENT B. 2, 2b.
In some names of precious stones, denoting a stone different from, but resembling in colour, that bearing the simple name; as oriental amethyst, o. emerald, o. topaz (respectively purple, green, and yellow varieties of sapphire).

c1385 CHAUCER L.G.W. Prol. 221 Of oo perle, fyne, oriental, Hire white coroune was ymaked al. c1400 LYDG. �sop's Fab. Prol. 26 Perlis white, cliere, and oriental Bien oft founde in muskle shellis blake. 1596 Edward III, II. i. 12 But no more like her oriental red Than brick to coral. 1599 HAKLUYT Voy. II. 279 Some dozen of very faire Emeraulds orientall. 1693 SIR R. REDDING in Phil. Trans. XVII. 661 The in-sides of the shells are of an Oriental and Pearly Colour. 1747 [see OCCIDENTAL A. 3]. 1796 KIRWAN Elem. Min. (ed. 2) I. 289 Those that possess this varying splendor are called Oriental opals, though they are not found in the East. 1868 DANA Min. 138 Corundum..Var. 1. Sapphire..Includes the purer kinds of fine colors,..true Ruby, or Oriental Ruby, red; O. Topas, yellow; O. Emerald, green; O. Amethyst, purple.



B. n. (Often with capital initial.)

1. An oriental pearl or other gem; see A. 4. Obs.

1377 LANGL. P. Pl. B. II. 14 Diamantz of derrest pris, and double manere safferes, Orientales and ewages. 1750 tr. Leonardus' Mirr. Stones 84 Cornelian is a stone of a reddish or ruddy colour, and such are Orientals.



2. pl. Oriental languages; see A. 3. Obs.

1680 H. DODWELL Two Lett. (1691) 155 Those tongues..derived from the Hebrew Tongue, as most of the Orientals are. 1712 STEELE Spect. No. 473 1, I heard a young Man..comfort himself in his Ignorance of Greek, Hebrew, and the Orientals. a1734 NORTH Lives (1826) III. 322 Latin, and the vernaculars westward,..carry nearly the same idiom; but the Orientals and Greek partake not so much of them.



3. A native or inhabitant of the East; i.e. usually, an Asiatic; cf. A. 3.

1701 GREW Cosm. Sacra IV. i. �26 The Jews, and all the Orientals, took all those Prophecies..in a Literal Sense. 1850 ROBERTSON Serm. Ser. III. iii. (1872) 38 The Oriental prostrates himself on the ground. 1864 BURTON Scot Abr. I. ii. 97 A solemn, bearded, turbanded, and robed Oriental.



b. Name of a fancy variety of pigeon.

1897 Daily News 6 Jan. 3/3 The show presents..barbs, Antwerps, homers, Modenas, magpies, Archangels, orientals, and other varieties of the columbarian family.



4. Denoting a variety of porcelain imported from China by European countries from c1700 to c1835; also known as Oriental Lowestoft, Chinese Lowestoft, Chinese Export Porcelain. Also attrib.

1863 W. CHAFFERS Marks Pott. & Porc. 134 Brameld. This mark is in red, on porcelain vases, in imitation of Oriental. 1873 C. SCHREIBER Jrnl. (1911) I. 201 A collection of choice specimens of Oriental. 1926 [see MINTON].



5. Used ellipt. for oriental carpet, pattern, rug, etc.

1897 Sears, Roebuck Catal. 220/2 Extra Fine Lace Back Suspenders... A magnificent assortment of patterns. Persians, Orientals, Dresdens. 1938 I. GOLDBERG Wonder of Words v. 91 The noun oriental has ceased, or half-ceased, to mean a rug woven in the Orient; it has come to mean a rug of a certain design and coloring. 1969 M. G. EBERHART Message from Hong Kong xvii. 152 The rugs in the hall were old Orientals, worn thin too, but still glowing in reds and blues. 1972 E. BERCKMAN Fourth Man on Rope i. 19 On its polished floor-boards lay a thin faded Oriental, once a very good one. 1977 C. MCFADDEN Serial (1978) xxx. 67/2 Martha..began to pull Kate unsteadily across the Oriental.