Korean Job Discussion Forums :: View topic

Speak Korean Now!

Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!

Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

Oops! Sorry, Australia
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next

Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 1:02 am Post subject:

bucheon bum wrote:

oh, the soviets and other commie gov'ts liked us joo? Laughing

No one hated us prior to the fall of communism? wow, kick ass.

No but many in Europe in Asia and the mideast began to become much more anti US once the Soviets were out of the way.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 1:06 am Post subject:

The Bobster wrote:

There are some who want to make the case that people hate America because we are wonderful. That's not why we are sometimes hated - it's why we are often loved and more often emulated.

Truth is, we are not wonderful all the time. It's for those instances that we are sometimes hated. That's just the way it is.

It has nothing to do whether the US is wonderful or not.

The US is hated / resented cause it is a hyperpower.

The Falseness of Anti-Americanism by Faoud Ajami

Quote:

Pollsters report rising antiericanism worldwide. The United States, they imply, squandered global sympathy after the September 11 terrorist attacks through its arrogant unilateralism.

In truth, there was never any sympathy to squander. Anti-Americanism was already entrenched in the world's psyche a backlash against a nation that comes bearing modernism to those who want it but who also fear and despise it.

Foreign Policy | September 15, 2003

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/983088/posts

Fact the vast majority of nations that were militarily hostile to the US were run by totalitarian expansionist thugs , most of whom didn't even let their own citizens leave.

The US ought to be proud to have the enemies it does.

Quote:

Behind Algeria, on a score of 110.55, come North Korea, Burma, Indonesia, Libya, Colombia, Syria, Iraq, Yugoslavia and China. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan and Nigeria follow closely. The United Kingdom comes 141st; a good score on a global basis but not so admirable when compared with other rich, industrialised countries - we are seventh out of 23.

Quote:

It scores 10 out of 10 on denial of majority rights because of gassing the Kurds.

A country with a wretched record of human rights abuse could score a maximum total of 190. Saddam Hussein's Iraq proves the winner of the unmodified list - which measures human rights abuses outside of their economic context - with an unadjusted score of 155.

International sanctions and the legacy of Saddam's two wars against Iraq and the United Nations over Kuwait, which have crippled Iraq, give it a low rating on the UN's human development index. Iraq's new-found impoverishment catapults it down the list, leaving Algeria in poll position.

http://www.algeria-watch.de/mrv/mrvrap/observe4.htm

The greatest killers in history were against the US.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm

Quote:

Question: Who was the Bloodiest Tyrant of the 20th Century?
Answer: We don't know.
That's probably the saddest fact of the Twentieth Century. There are so many candidates for the award of top monster that we can't decide between them. Whether it's Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong or Iosif Stalin is, quite frankly, anybody's guess.

For now, let's just skip over the whole margin of error thing -- reasonable people have studied the evidence and come up with wildly differing numbers. You're free to check my sources, but for now, trust me. I've studied the matter at great length and decided that the most likely death toll for these three are:

TYRANT DEATHS
Mao 40Million
Hitler 34M
Stalin 20M

Well, that certainly looks like Mao is our man, but wait. Mao's largest crime is the Great Leap Forward, a bungled attempt to restructure the economy of China which created a famine that killed some 30M. If we confine our indictment to deliberate killings, we get this:

TYRANT KILLINGS
Hitler 34M
Stalin 20M
Mao 10M

So it's Hitler, right? Except that most of the deaths on his head were caused by the Second World War. Sure, he started it, but our society does not blanketly condemn the starting of wars (after all, we reserve the right to do it ourselves in a just cause), and we certainly don't consider killing armed enemy soldiers in a fair fight to be a crime against humanity. If we therefore confine ourselves to the cold-blooded murder of unarmed non-combatants, our table rearranges itself again:

TYRANT MURDERS
Stalin 20M
Hitler 15M
Mao 10M

This brings Stalin floating to the top. So it look like once you reduce their crimes to the unjustifiably lowest common denominator, then Stalin is worst; however, you might want to argue that dead is dead so it really doesn't matter if you give your victims a chance to fight back. Fighting an unjust or reckless war is certainly a crime against humanity, so our numbers should go back to:

TYRANT KILLINGS
Hitler 34M
Stalin 20M
Mao 10M

... and these are just the problems we'll encounter if we accept my numbers without debate. If we want to use the estimates of other scholars, we can pin up to 50 million murders on Stalin, enough to push him to the top of the list regardless of definition. Or we can whittle him down to 10 million murders if we use the low end of the margin of error, and scrounge several more tens of millions for Mao, or away from him.

So, the answer to the question of "Who is roasting on the hottest fires in Hell?" is "Well, that depends..."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secondary Level of Mass Murderers:
Obviously, we're going to run into the same vagueries and uncertainties when we try to rank numbers 4 through 10 on the list of the 20th Century's worst killers, but at least we can nominate the candidates. A pretty good case could be made that each of the following rulers (listed alphabetically) were responsible for over a million unjust, unnecessary or unnatural deaths by initiating or intensifying war, famine, democide or resettlement, or by allowing people under their control to do so:

Chiang Kai-shek (China: 1928-49)
Enver Pasha (Turkey: 1913-18 )
Hirohito (Japan: 1926-89)
Hirota Koki (Japan: 1936-37)
Ho Chi Minh (North Vietnam: 1945-69)
Kim Il Sung (North Korea: 1948-94)
Lenin (USSR: 1917-24)
Leopold II (Belgium: 1865-1909 )
Nicholas II (Russia: 1894-1917)
Pol Pot (Cambodia: 1975-79)
Saddam Hussein (Iraq: 1969- )
Tojo Hideki (Japan: 1941-44)
Wilhelm II (Germany: 1888-1918 )
Yahya Khan (Pakistan: 1969-71)
Here are a few of the century's rulers who could easily be indicted for causing hundreds of thousands of unnatural deaths. Although some might be acquitted due to inadequite evidence or mitigating circumstances, it might be a good idea to not build statues to them.

Idi Amin (Uganda: 1971-80)
Ion Antonescu (Romania: 1940-44)
Ataturk (Turkey: 1920-38 )
Francisco Franco (Spain: 1939-75)
Gheoghe Gheorghiu-Dej (Romania: 1945-65)
Yakubu Gowon (Nigeria: 1966-76)
Radovan Karadzic (Serbian Bosnia: 1991-96)
Babrac Kemal (Afghanistan: 1979-87)
Le Duan (Vietnam: 1976-86)
Haile Mengistu (Ethiopia: 1974-91)
Benito Mussolini (Italy: 1922-43)
Ante Pavelic (Croatia: 1941-45)
Antonio de Salazar (Portugal: 1932-68 )
Hadji Suharto (Indonesia: 1967-97)
Tito (Yugoslavia: 1945- 80)

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm

The vast majority of the time the US was in the right And those around the world that hate or resented the US were just commies . fascists or nationalists anarchists, misinformed or just ignorant people. Of course they could count on the help of useful idiots or, radicals with a grudge in the US.

Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:22 am; edited 7 times in total

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 1:19 am Post subject:

supernick wrote:

Ask TUM, and he will tell you that the Canadians were to blame for being bombed in Afgahnistan.

.

Any reason you are fabricating facts? I never said that they were to blame, I said they (by failing to follow proper procedures) shared some of the blame.

I realize it is hard for you to tell such subtle distinctions apart though, and as such I can only suggest that you read more carefully.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:29 am Post subject:

The Bobster wrote:

Not quite adequate. Or do I have to summon Gopher and his diatribes on Chilean resentment? Nobody wants that! Wink

matthewwoodford

Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Location: Location, location, location.

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Oops! Sorry, Australia

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

The U.S. Marine Corps said the ordnance was a 500 pound laser-guided bomb, Australian Broadcasting Corp. reported.

Must be one of these bombs with pinpoint accuracy we've heard so much about.

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Must be one of these bombs with pinpoint accuracy we've heard so much about.

I wondered about that, too. Maybe there is an undeclared war on Australian tool sheds (or whatever it hit).

supernick

Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:24 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Ok, so the Canadians can share some of the blame in your opinion. Just how much blame would you put on the Canadians? I know you're going to say that there were previous close calls and that happens all the time in war zones.

Two inquiries have put the blame on the pilots, and with all your faith in the U.S. military, that should be enough for you.

WASHINGTON, June 18 — A military investigation has found that an F-16 pilot mistakenly dropped a 500-pound bomb on Canadian soldiers conducting a nighttime live-fire exercise in Afghanistan in April because he did not take time to assess the threat properly before striking, military officials said today.
The inquiry concluded in a classified report that the pilot, Maj. Harry Schmidt of the Illinois Air National Guard, thought he was under attack from the ground when he dropped the bomb that killed four Canadian soldiers and wounded eight.
But instead of leaving the area to assess the threat and plan a possible counterstrike, as procedures dictate, Major Schmidt and the pilot of a second plane rushed to attack before a radar plane could confirm that they were hostile, officials said.
In fact, the Awacs plane alerted Major Schmidt that "potential friendlies were in the area," but the warning came too late — seconds after the major had declared he was firing in self defense and dropped a GBU-12 laser-guided bomb. The accident was all the more confounding to investigators because Major Schmidt is a seasoned former Navy pilot and instructor at the Navy's elite Top Gun weapons school.
The eight-week inquiry, based on interviews with 70 people, also concluded that in allowing the events to spiral out of control, the pilot of the second plane, an Air National Guard squadron commander, Maj. William Umbach, failed to "exercise leadership," officials said. "It's pretty cut and dried," one official said. "They didn't follow proper procedures."
The bombing of the Canadian troops ranks among the deadliest instances of American warplanes accidentally bombing friendly forces in the nine-month war in Afghanistan. It was also the first time Canadian soldiers have been killed in a combat zone since the Korean War.
Military officials said the 1,500-page report recommended that the two F-16 pilots face an Article 32 hearing, often likened to a civilian grand jury. It also recommended changes in the 170th fighter squadron, part of the Illinois Air National Guard's 183rd Fighter Wing.
The findings of the inquiry, conducted by Brig. Gen. Stephen T. Sargeant of the Air Force and Brig. Gen. Marc Dumais of Canada, have not yet been made public and remain to be approved by at least three senior officers. A separate Canadian inquiry is to be completed by Friday.
Capt. James Key, an Air Force lawyer representing Major Schmidt, was in court today and unavailable to comment. His office released a statement extending the pilot's "sincere condolences to the families of the Canadian soldiers who were killed in Afghanistan as well as to those soldiers who were wounded."
Captain Key — who, citing issues of family safety, did not confirm his client's identity — said in a statement that the pilot "believes that he properly followed procedures based on the information he had at the time." He added that the pilot "did not know the troops on the ground were coalition soldiers."
According to several military officials, investigators believe the following:
Just before 2 a.m. in Afghanistan on April 18, the pilots of the two F-16's were finishing a routine patrol, and preparing to meet a refueling plane to gas up for the three-hour flight back to Al Jaber air base in Kuwait. The pilots had flown missions from there since late March.
Flying near Kandahar, the pilots saw muzzle flashes on the ground behind them and thought they had come under fire. What they did not know was that Canadian infantry troops were conducting an exercise using live ammunition and small arms in a designated training area south of Kandahar. The training area was well known to American forces, and aircraft were not supposed to fly below 10,000 feet when over it.
It is unclear why the pilots did not know they were flying past the range. Officials said that Canadian troops had properly notified their allied partners that the drill was taking place, and that the information was available to the pilots.
Moreover, flying at 23,000 feet, the pilots were in no danger of being hit by small-arms fire. If they had felt threatened, officials said, the proper course would have been to fly higher, or leave and assess the threat.
But in this case, the planes wheeled around. Major Schmidt requested and was denied permission to attack the troops. The pilots were given permission to mark the target by determining its precise location.
As he did this, Major Schmidt saw what looked to him like fire aimed at Major Umbach's jet. He dove to just above 10,000 feet to drop his bomb. The pilots then left, learning about the accident only after they landed.

By Allison Lawlor
The Globe and Mail
June 28/02
A Canadian military inquiry blamed two U.S. fighter pilots on Friday for not following proper procedures when they dropped a 250-kilogram bomb on 100 Canadian soldiers training in an Afghan field in April, killing four and wounding eight.
At a news conference in Ottawa, Defence Minister John McCallum said that Canadian soldiers did nothing wrong on that fateful day in April, but that Major Harry Schmidt and Major William Umbach, at the helm of two F-16 jets, were "the direct cause" of the bombing incident.
"Canadian troops conducting the live-fire exercise followed all appropriate procedures and regulations," Mr. McCallum said.
The Defence Minister was joined at the news conference by retired general Maurice Baril and General Ray Henault, the chief of defence staff.
The U.S. inquiry found that the pilots showed an "inappropriate use of force" when they dropped the bomb on the Canadian soldiers, Gen. Baril said. Further, he said the two American pilots contravened established procedures making them the cause of the incident.
The actions of the pilots, Gen. Baril said, "represented a failure of airmanship and technique for the wingman and a failure of leadership for the flight leader."
The Edmonton- and Winnipeg-based troops from the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry involved in the night live-fire exercise in Afghanistan had been fully authorized to do so, and had conducted the exercise in accordance with the established range procedures, including the types of weapons fire, the Canadian inquiry found.
"I am satisfied with the excellent and thorough work done by General Maurice Baril and his team," Mr. McCallum said. "There is nothing we can do to bring our lost soldiers back, but we will do all that is humanly possible to mitigate the risk of such a tragedy happening again."
The Canadian board determined that the two American F-16 pilots flying over the area observed the live-fire exercise and mistakenly perceived it as enemy surface-to-air fire. The pilot, Maj. Schmidt, told U.S. investigators he believed he was under attack from the ground and fired in self-defence.
Simultaneously Friday, a U.S. board of inquiry released its official findings into the accident, concluding that two U.S. F-16 pilots failed to exercise proper caution, an American officer said.
Marine Lieutenant-General Michael DeLong, deputy commander of U.S. Central Command, told a news conference in Tampa, Fla., that the cause of the deadly accident was the failure of the two pilots to exercise appropriate discipline.
He said the two pilots stand accused of inappropriate use of lethal force. Any disciplinary action against the pilots is a matter to be considered by the Air Force, Lt.-Gen. DeLong added.
He declined to say what kind of disciplinary action was recommended by the investigation board.
Lt.-Gen. DeLong also declined to comment on whether the F-16 pilots had been told in advance that the Canadian troops were conducting live-fire training in the area and would only say that all pilots are briefed to every mission.
He would also not comment on whether they dropped the bomb despite being told to hold off.
"I can't comment on actions taken because it may effect discipline action."
Both inquiries worked from the same information collected at the coalition base in Afghanistan that housed the Canadians, at the U.S. airbase in Kuwait where the aircraft were stationed, and in Tampa, Fla., where all coalition activities are co-ordinated. They also received written statements from Major Schmidt and Major Umbach and viewed videotape filmed in the F-16 as Major Schmidt swooped in for the kill and dropped his bomb.
Sergeant Marc Leger, 29, of Lancaster, Ont., Private Nathan Smith, 27, of Tatamagouche, N.S., Corporal Ainsworth Dyer, 25, of Montreal and Private Richard Green, 21, of Mill Cove, N.S., died in the bombing. They were Canada's first casualties in the U.S.-led military effort, and its first combat fatalities since the Korean War.
Gen. Baril said he hopes the report will bring some comfort to the families of the soldiers who died or were injured in the incident.
Gen. Henault reiterated that the sacrifices of the Canadian soldiers will always be remembered and that their deaths were not in vain.
The Canadian Forces will continue to study the findings and take the necessary steps to ensure such incidents are prevented in the future, he said.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:25 am Post subject:

supernick wrote:

Quote:

Try and follow along. The topic was not what the inquiries said, but what YOU said I had said. You made a wrong claim and I corrected it. Once again, you said that I had said the Canadians were to blame. I corrected you by saying I had said they were to share part of the blame. Who said what is the topic here, not the inquiries.

Bulsajo

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:34 am Post subject:

This post got completely skipped over.

waterbaby wrote:

A few years ago a religious cult (forget their name) tested a nuclear bomb in a remote part of Western Australia and nobody even knew for the longest time Razz

Am I the only person who read this and thought "WTF?!?"
WB do you have any more information on this, or was it just a joke?
On the face of it I find it, uh, *somewhat* hard to believe.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:43 am Post subject:

i heard about it before. It is true. Just do a google search and you'll find a number of articles about it I'm sure.

Pyongshin Sangja

Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:43 am Post subject:

Quote:

Did you even read either of those articles? They said the Canadians weren't at fault at all. The US and Canadian militaries both said it was the fault of the pilots. The only one saying the Canadians were even slightly at fault is you. Were you there on that night? You're making things up.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:00 am Post subject:

ok, the nuke thing apparently is a rumor and possability. It was in Bill Bryson's book

Quote:

The book you're reading is undoubtedly Bill Bryson's In a Sunburned Country. In it he reports that:

At 11:03 PM local time on May 28, 1993, a large-scale seismic disturbance, elsewhere reported as measuring 3.9 on the Richter scale, was detected near the Banjawarn sheep station in remote western Australia. The few observers in the area reported seeing a flash in the sky and hearing an explosion.
The blast was 170 times more powerful than the biggest mining explosion ever recorded in the region and was consistent with a meteorite strike, but no crater could be found.
In 1995, after the Aum Shinrikyo in Japan had released nerve gas in the Tokyo subway system and killed 12 people, it was revealed that the cult owned a 500,000-acre property in western Australia near the site of the mysterious boom.
The cult has two former Soviet nuclear engineers in its ranks, hopes eventually to destroy the world, and maybe wanted a bit of practice, eh?
In 1997, scientists finally got around to investigating this disquieting possibility. "You take my point," Bryson writes. "This is a country . . . so vast and empty that a band of amateur enthusiasts could conceivably set off the world's first nongovernmental atomic bomb on its mainland and almost four years would pass before anyone noticed."

Bulsajo

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:14 am Post subject:

bucheon bum wrote:

i heard about it before. It is true. Just do a google search and you'll find a number of articles about it I'm sure.

Well, I guess I slept all day or something on the day that made the headlines. Confused

Now I'm worried about what else I might have missed...

Bulsajo

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:21 am Post subject:

Pyongshin Sangja wrote:

They said the Canadians weren't at fault at all. The US and Canadian militaries both said it was the fault of the pilots.

Not that Pyongshin needs back up, but this is indisputable.

Emu Bitter

Joined: 27 May 2004
Location: Bundang

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:40 am Post subject:

Our idiot PM was elected before George Bush so does that make Bush a Howard clone? To be truthful, I'm constantly telling my American friends who are mostly anti-Bush that Bush is a much better man than Howard.

Display posts from previous:

	Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Page 2 of 3

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe