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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, my bad. Well there is nothing in the Quran about cutting down trees, but apparently Mohammed did forbid people to cut down trees in Medina. Re:war, Mohammed actually did that in one battle to defeat another tribe/army so obviously this guy isn't an expert on Islam.
Thing is, a lot Arab Muslims do that crap. They act like they're experts and take a smidge of something from the Koran, hadiths, etc, "add" to the smidge to apply to whatever they're talking about, and then if you question them (such as, 'uh, you sure about that? I seem to recall the sura says, 'try not to cut down trees.' There is nothing about war and trees," they whip out, "I'm a muslim, you're not, so stfu" albeit in slightly more polite words. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Infoseeker wrote: |
| Come on mate. His name's Nashar. He must be guilty. |
Works for me. |
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Infoseeker
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Lurking somewhere near Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Well I'd wager 99% of Muslims would agree with him that the terrorists weren't that knowledgable about Islam. |
Like, are Muslims actually forbidden to cut down trees? That one pegs high on the b.s. meter. |
It IS mentioned in the Koran that the Prophet said something along the lines of cutting down tress being a bad idea. The reason being that if someone happens to come along later, they will no longer be able to use that tree to shelter from the sun. Don't forget Islam began in the dessert. I've heard this mentioned several times by muslim friends. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| His only point is that they are not qualified to speak for Islam. |
Who exactly is qualified to speak for Islam? Yusuf Al-Qaradawi? The President of Al-Azhar University? The 'moderate' Muslim Council of Britain?
If these people are representative of mainstream Islam, ignoring the hundreds of Jihadi movements around the world, then we have a serious problem. In Islam, it is the reformers and liberals who represent the fringe minority. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| If these people are representative of mainstream Islam, ignoring the hundreds of Jihadi movements around the world, then we have a serious problem. In Islam, it is the reformers and liberals who represent the fringe minority. |
From the article quoted at the start of this discussion :
"I have been dealing with fundamentalists and terrorists for 20 years," says Egyptian Interior Ministry spokesperson Hisham Eddin al Amr. "And there was no way this guy was one of them."
and some more :
At a time when Arab Muslims in the West are coming under growing suspicion, Nashar is seen here as the ideal face of moderate Islam and cross- cultural understanding. He is being heralded as a lesson for a terror-rattled West not to prejudge all Muslims as terrorists. "I found it easy to live with American and European people because we deal with each other in the same way," says Nashar. "My parents taught me well, to do good things, to be nice, to be kind, and I think this is what American and European people are like."
"It was a good experience because it's a big mix of different cultures," he says of his time in Raleigh, N.C. "I found people of all different backgrounds living in peace and happy and helpful and friendly. I was impressed...."
Most of what I know about the guy is from this article, so for the benefit of people like bigverne who probably didn't read it, I'll quote a bit more :
Still, Nashar is eager to return to Britain, where he has a British fiancée, an apartment, and all his possessions. He also has a year-long fellowship at Leeds University, which he was awarded after earning his first patent. He invented a cheaper and more environmentally friendly way to inject necessary enzymes into food and medicines.
"This is my aim, I want to do something for humanity and for the environment," he says. "I want to bring people cheap food and cheap drugs."
He says he won't stop his humanitarian quest because of his ordeal, but that he did learn a valuable lesson. "What I learned is be kind and be helpful to people, but bring witnesses with you."
I love the sardonic humor expressed in the trail end of this article because it dovetails very nicely witgh the kind of humor I have appreciated from every Middle Eastern acquaintance and close friend I have had over the years. It seems very genuine, and this what part of what struck me as indicative of truth about the whole thing.
I've seen some try to paint all of Islam with the brush of terror, and now under confrontation I have seen at least one of them retreat to a position that it is only a minority that are "good" - the same folk I have seen fail miserably when trying to use such a frail device as opinion polls to "quantify" the level of menace.
I continue to assert that people like Mr Nashar are the majority, because I believe my senses and people like him are the majority among those I have met. I suspect that he knows as much about Islam as most Presbyterian Sunday School teachers in Topeka Kansas knows about the tripartate nature of the divintiy in mainstream Christian religion. I will take his word and assert it as representative of mainstream muslim thought because it coincides with other views I have heard from people similare to him
Sure, I could be wrong, and I'll hang my head in shame if some tangible proof is found that he is the "mastermind" he was claimed to be ... I doubt I'll have to.
I have a pretty good idea of how the world is. I am well aware of why some people exist on the fringes of extremism and others do not. And why they choose those of us in the middle to wage their battle against. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| people like him are the majority among those I have met. |
Is it possible that the people you have met have been educated, middle class and more Westernised muslims, and thus largely unrepresentative of the muslim world in general.
Tell me, if the majority of muslims are tolerant and not prone to extremism, why are muslim states generally intolerant and prone to extremism?
If, as you seem to believe, liberal muslims represent the majority in the muslim world, then why are muslim states so intolerant and repressive, and why did Iranians recently vote in a hardline conservative as President? |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:31 am Post subject: |
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bigverne, I just glanced at the title and topic of the thread discussion - um, yeah, I started this one - and it's not about muslims in their home countries but rather those who have chosen to reside in places like Britain. Therefore I'm confused ... at your confusion when you bring us around to "muslim states."
The first sentence of your post betrays a prejudice that states that people from the middle east lack education. It is not in accord with most of what I have read and heard about people from that part of the world, and it does not accord with what we know about the people who have produced the major acts of terror in the last few years.
It is a stereotype that you are trying to promote, that of brown-skinned and hairy people with a wierd religion that is antithetical to all we hold dear, and it makes people feel a little more comfortable to think that the people who oppose us are very different than we are.
Problem is, there is just not a lot of evidence for it. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:54 am Post subject: |
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Nice evasion, but you failed to answer my questions.
If Islam, and by extension, the majority of muslim are tolerant and share the same values as us (as you seem to think), why is oppression, intolerance and extremism endemic in the muslim world? Why are democracy and liberalism absent from the Islamic world? Could it be something to do with the prevailing culture (i.e Islamic culture) of those countries?
| Quote: |
| with a wierd religion that is antithetical to all we hold dear |
If the second class status of women, discrimination against religious minorities and an almost total absence of freedom of speech and concsience are antithetical to all we hold dear, then yes, Islam is antithetical to all we hold dear. When I see democracy, women's rights and the rights of minorities blooming in the Middle East, I will gladly take back all I have said. |
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