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Bunnymonster

Joined: 16 Mar 2004 Location: Tokyo
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| Remember American to be a superior language to English because you can make mistakes in neither spelling, grammar nor punctuation. I find if you just shuffle up the words at random you'll make perfect americanised sentences. Phonetic pronunciation, uneeded, everyone knows the weather is hat and that babies sleep in cats and the letters d and t make no sound at the ends of words................ |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005 Location: the crib
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| cubanlord wrote: |
| Depends on the level you are teaching. Just make sure you explain to them that this is only used in informal writing. Use a conjunction incorrectly in a research paper, formal essay, etc. and be prepared for your professor to wreak havoc with a red pen. |
My master's thesis on foreign affairs, which my chair is pushing that I publish, contains many sentences that begin with "and" and "but" -- some of them being sentences she herself wrote.
Most books that I've read and many, many historical documents coming out of the White House and several govt agencies start sentences with "and," "but," and "or."
The kinds of rigid rules you cite only really exist in high school and freshman writing classes. Once you start writing professionally, there really aren't so many rules like this. But I will defer to The Elements of Style on these points if someone is looking for a final answer.
In any case, English is a "living language." And it's constantly changing and adapting. Some are "proscriptive" grammarians (cite the rules from the book), while others are "descriptive" grammarians (allow for common usage). I like the freedom the latter offers. |
That's correct. The purpose of grammatical rules is to assist conveyance of meaning and promote comprehension. Some people think the rules simply are there, for no apparent reason, and must be followed at all costs.
Things like ending sentences with prepositions and beginning them with conjunctions are nonissues that real writers need not concern themselves with. What I mean by "real" is someone who writes for a purpose other than a grade for school. They should instead concern themselves with proper punctuation usage, especially regarding commas and semi-colons, as those were the most common errors I'd see when editing news copy. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| I find Canadian vs US threads highly entertaining but repetitive, so I'm hoping this thread descends into a US vs the snooty owners of English thread. We haven't had one of those in a couple of months. Bunnymonster is on the right track. |
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kimchikowboy

Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Informal. You've never read an American essay/text book? No one's going to right like that in a formal text. |
I love grammar, spelling and punctuation threads!  |
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ilovebdt

Joined: 03 Jun 2005 Location: Nr Seoul
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| cubanlord wrote: |
I teach American English (as I am American). I wrap a kids knuckles if they start a sentence with a conjunction (in my beginning writing classes). If they start a sentence with a conjunction (in a dependent clause, followed up with an independent clause), I give them an English dollar.
Depends on the level you are teaching. Just make sure you explain to them that this is only used in informal writing. Use a conjunction incorrectly in a research paper, formal essay, etc. and be prepared for your professor to wreak havoc with a red pen. |
English dollars  |
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joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005 Location: Elsewhere
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Informally, yes, maybe. But, the conjunction should be followed a comma. Because, this type of writing is simply approximating speech. And, it might make sense to put quotation marks around it.
In formal or even polite writing, one never starts a sentence with "and" or "but". However, there are synonyms for "but", such as "however" and "nevertheless" which can be used at the beginning of sentences. In addition, one could replace "and" with a word or phrase such as "in addition" or "moreover". Nevertheless, I doubt your hagwon kids know about these words. |
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kermo

Joined: 01 Sep 2004 Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Guys guys guys. This is not an American vs. British question. This is a case of the "Lurking Konglish."
Koreans love to begin sentences with words like "however," "therefore," "nevertheless," and so on. If you listen, you'll hear these words in Korean, like "koronikka," "korumyun," "kurigo," etc., etc.
Your students need to know that English style doesn't require these sorts of words, and hopefully they'll lay off a little. Personally, I try not to begin sentences with "but," "and" and certainly not "because." |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:56 am Post subject: |
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[quote]
If they start a sentence with a conjunction (in a dependent clause, followed up with an independent clause), I give them an English dollar.
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Isn't it obvious from the context that the OP hands out English Class Phony Money? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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I've noticed Korean kids begin every with "because". I show them if you remove the because the sentence still makes perfect sense. Next time around they start their sentence with because...
Anyway, you can start a sentence with "and" or "but". It is, however, considered weak or informal. I would avoid using and or but if writing an academic paper or an objective news report. However, for literary effect, it has its place. |
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ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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And, why aren't we talkin bout Canadian English? Always use and for emphasis at the begining of a sentence! As in ---- AND, why aren't we .........
My two sentence worth.
DD
"Language is going to hell, right where it came from. In the begining were only god and silence." |
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joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005 Location: Elsewhere
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| And, why aren't we talkin bout Canadian English? |
Why all this debate about whether we should teach British or American English? Pop quiz. Which country has the most English speakers:
a. United Kingdom
b. US of A
c. India
d. China
Hint: It's not India.
Hint #2: It's not the USA. |
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babtangee
Joined: 18 Dec 2004 Location: OMG! Charlie has me surrounded!
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| kimchikowboy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Informal. You've never read an American essay/text book? No one's going to right like that in a formal text. |
I love grammar, spelling and punctuation threads!  |
That's cause you're a nerd.  |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005 Location: the crib
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| joe_doufu wrote: |
| Informally, yes, maybe. But, the conjunction should be followed a comma. Because, this type of writing is simply approximating speech. |
If the purpose is approximating speech, and you don't pause after your initial word/conjunction, there's no need to put a comma there when writing it. For example:
And the Lord said....
It would be absurd to place a comma there.
| Quote: |
| In formal or even polite writing, one never starts a sentence with "and" or "but". However, there are synonyms for "but", such as "however" and "nevertheless" which can be used at the beginning of sentences. In addition, one could replace "and" with a word or phrase such as "in addition" or "moreover". Nevertheless, I doubt your hagwon kids know about these words. |
You bring up a difference between Korean and English that I often lament. In English, one must make a real effort to project politeness and formality. In Korean, all one has to do is use a different conjugation format and select the "more honorable" words where applicable. Korean linguistic honor removes sincerity through rote, I think. |
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sheba
Joined: 16 May 2005 Location: Here there and everywhere!
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Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| joe_doufu wrote: |
Why all this debate about whether we should teach British or American English? |
The point to my question was - is this style of writing American English?
Because NZ uses British English and I was taught NEVER to start a sentence with these words (with the exception of very infomal writing, such as right here!) Our hagwon teaches American English so I was wondering if it was common practice. The kids write this way, the text books are written this way, and even the teachers think it is normal. I told them what I thought and said Id double check with some Americans about whether its ok.... |
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joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005 Location: Elsewhere
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Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| sheba wrote: |
| joe_doufu wrote: |
Why all this debate about whether we should teach British or American English? |
The point to my question was - is this style of writing American English?
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The point to my question was, if we were really professionals, we'd be teaching "Chinglish" as China has the most English speakers of any country. If you want to talk about the most fluent speakers, we should probably be teaching the Indian Subcontinent dialect. |
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