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| Did Old Man Bush have a hand in killing JFK ??? |
| Yes, it's quite likely |
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29% |
[ 5 ] |
| No, that's impossible |
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29% |
[ 5 ] |
| Maybe |
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35% |
[ 6 ] |
| Gee, I've never considered that possibilty ... tell me more ... |
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5% |
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| Total Votes : 17 |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| he left the CIA with his reputation relatively intact |
He was a caretaker DCI, put in place to keep house for a year or so. That's all that he did. He doesn't rank among the most controversial or the best or even the worst of the DCIs.
Let's keep things in their proper perspective. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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well saying he kept his rep. intact is true isn't it? But yes, Bush's stint at the CIA was short and unmemorable. Tenet named the CIA building after Bush simply to kiss ass and look good.
RE: JFK, i have no idea who shot him. I just don't think it was strictly oswald. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
Hunt shot Kennedy?
Cite your evidence. |
You do your homework. This isn't my responsibility ... ya ding dong.
Who gave the CIA assassin Hunt the "hush" $$$ ??? |
Your thinking is so flawed that it's difficult to interact with you.
Howard Hunt was a CIA case officer, educated at Brown University. He held conservative, anticommunist views that sometimes put him at odds with the liberal democrat Ivy Leaguers like Richard Bissell, Tracy Barnes, Desmond FitzGerald, etc., who dominated the Directorate of Plans, at least bureaucratically. Richard Helms was not an Ivy Leaguer. But he liked Hunt because Hunt wrote spy fiction as a hobby and even published one -- Bimimi Run.
Hunt's specialty in the Western Hemisphere Division (Latin American operations division) was political action and propaganda. He had no experience in the paramilitary, psychological, or technical services staffs. He served in the PBSUCCESS task force. He had been a case officer assigned to the embassy in Mexico. Then, after making it as high as chief of station in Uruguay, he came back to serve as a political officer in the ZAPATA task force (the Bay of Pigs task force). His service in ZAPATA featured lots of bumbling with the Cuban exile community, he was something of an idiot. Headquarters took him out of Miami and sent him to Wallstreet, where he worked under the direction of David Atlee Phillips. Together they managed the exiles' PR campaign through Lem-Jones Associates, a Madison Avenue PR firm.
Hunt resurfaced as a Nixon hired hand -- he had already quit CIA. He recruited and ran "the plumbers," that moronic and keystone kop-style security detail meant to prevent White House leaks. They didn't prevent any leaks. They were known for the Watergate break-in, where, if memory serves me well, Hunt left an address book with a White House name and phone number, making it all to easy for the police to make the connection.
Following this, Hunt granted interviews to historians like Stephen Ambrose and Richard Immerman. He also publised his memoirs.
He is seen as something of a flake, however.
In any case, Hunt never had any involvment with any assassination activity whatsoever. Furthermore, case officers were not trained in assassination either. Case officers, in less than five cases in the entire history of CIA, recruited third-party foreign nationals as assassins, or I should say, attempted to recruit and employ them, as no CIA assassination conspiracy ever succeeded. (See U.S. Senate's staff report on the issue.)
Those are the facts.
What you are saying is nonsense.
Last edited by Gopher on Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| well saying he kept his rep. intact is true isn't it? But yes, Bush's stint at the CIA was short and unmemorable. Tenet named the CIA building after Bush simply to kiss ass and look good. |
I wasn't disagreeing with you, just adding facts.
CIA is proud that a former director is also a former president, without being particulary proud that it happened to be Bush. They feel that, as a former DCI, he had the best understanding of how CIA worked and related well with them during his presidency. Anyway, that's why they named the bldg. after him. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| That's all I'm saying- he came out of both positions without a lot of sh*t clumped to the bottom of his shoes- I think that's a bit of a rarity in Washington, and so he may be slyer than he is generally given credit for. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Someone who can survive in bureaucratic Washington, indeed, make it to the White House, is certainly slippery.
But the mastermind behind JFK's death? |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Someone who can survive in bureaucratic Washington, indeed, make it to the White House, is certainly slippery.
But the mastermind behind JFK's death? |
Oh, I was in no way suggesting that! I just thought Joe Doufu had a good point. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| When the BBC run the story you can say "I told you so." |
I find this quite interesting. The "facts" re: old man Bush & his relationship to the whole JFK / Bay of Pigs thing have been public domain for quite some time. As some may recall, the whole thing nearly blew up in his face during the 1988 Presidential election.
Still, until a major news network provides in-depth & quality coverage some sheeple simply prefer to keep their heads buried ...
If little Johnny says "Look mommy ... the Emperor is wearing no Clothes" it's just foolish talk from a child, right ??? Similarily, until we're told from the authorities on high it's OK to think or believe certain things is it then ok. Unless the BBC, FOX, ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN etc. tell us otherwise, little Johnny's claims remain mere childish talk & silly youthful delusion.
Who knows, maybe you're right. Maybe ignorance IS bliss.
Hear no, speak no, see no ... EVIL 
Last edited by igotthisguitar on Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| The "facts" re: old man Bush & his relationship to the whole JFK / Bay of Pigs thing have been public domain for quite some time. |
There are no professional historians or investigative journalists (like Peter Wyden or Evan Thomas) who give any attn at all to what you suggest.
And they've been going up and down the Bay of Pigs, excoriating the Agency (as they should, since it was an extremely ill-conceived and badly executed affair) since the 1970s.
The vaunted Inspector-General's report on the Bay of Pigs -- and please don't forget that Lyman Kirkpatrick was extremely unhappy with the Agency and its leadership -- only recently declassified because of its explosiveness, does not sustain or even hint that it might sustain, any of your allegations. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| There are no professional historians or investigative journalists (like Peter Wyden or Evan Thomas) who give any attn at all to what you suggest. |
And what i suggest is ... ???
| Gopher wrote: |
| The vaunted Inspector-General's report on the Bay of Pigs -- and please don't forget that Lyman Kirkpatrick was extremely unhappy with the Agency and its leadership -- only recently declassified because of its explosiveness, does not sustain or even hint that it might sustain, any of your allegations. |
Please spell out what you see as being the allegations that i have made.
Have you watched the Hopsicker video ??? Why not address what he says ??? It's a good expose.
http://madcowpolitics.com/jfk2bb.wmv
BTW - this Inspector General's Report sounds most interesting. Only recently de-classifed ???
Explosive revelations ??? Hmmmmmmm ... did the BBC pick up on this one ??? CNN ??? ABC ???
Likely not. Something like the Michael Jackson circus trial would almost certainly have been seen to be more of an essential news priority  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:04 am Post subject: |
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deleted
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| I'm not sure this is something that can be googled |
Yep it can. In fact i did so the other day after you mentioned this angle & had some good stuff come up as well.
| Gopher wrote: |
| ... a book called Bay of Pigs Declassified (1998) |
Thanks. You seem to be pretty keen on this kinda stuff.
| Gopher wrote: |
| ...anyway...are you telling me that the guys who planned this airdrop (incompetent CIA paramilitary planners) or the guys who executed it (indisciplined and incompetent Cuban operators) are the same guys who masterminded the JFK assassination and cover up? |
No, i don't believe i'm telling anyone much of anything. It's best to have more questions than answers with these kind of things, isn't it ??? Hopsicker has put together an insightful & provocative documentary mind you. Have you watched it yet ??? Give it a go & tell us what you think.
I think the really intriguing Bush family / Skull & Bones / ZAPATA / Bay of Pigs / Nixon / Nazi stuff etc. starts just before the 50 minute mark. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:44 am Post subject: |
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deleted
Last edited by Gopher on Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| I was concerned that I might be wasting my time to watch this, and now I am concerned that I just wasted my time ... |
| Gopher wrote: |
| You shouldn't use words like a-hole, refer to J. Edgar Hoover as "CIA's biatch," etc., in a historical account. It should be an emotionless recounting of facts and interpretation |
While i agree one shouldn't use those words, i didn't. Even though Hopsicker did ( likely for rhetorickal effect more than anything ) from the standpoint of reason & logick your criticism is unfounded.
STYLE over substance.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=style+substance+fallacy
| Gopher wrote: |
| He claims that CIA coerced and intimidated J. Edgar Hoover, and I find this very hard to believe. He says he has a memo on this -- I'd need to see the memo and look into it a little more ... |
Yes, look into it.
| Gopher wrote: |
| He exaggerates H.W. Bush's power and importance, claiming that it was he (and not Nancy!) who really ran the govt "while Reagan napped" all those years |
Well, he's not alone here. Many Washington insiders share in the same sentiments ( i.e. Bush indeed actually ran the show during the Reagan years. Ronnie simply read the script ).
btw - You at all familiar with the concidental Bush / Hinkley dinner connection the night before the attempted murder of Reagan ??? Close but no cigar.
| Gopher wrote: |
| He suggests that W. Bush was behind JFK, jr.'s death in 1999(!), and he really goes beyond any possible evidence here, except to point out that it isn't clear where W was on the day that JFK, jr.'s plane went down. |
Indeed. Nobody seems to know where GW was. He simply "disappeared" while campaigning for the Presidency, & then showed up 3 days later to offer his "condolences". It doesn't prove he had a hand in helping the plane "land", still ... as you're likely aware in politics perception means a lot.
Hopsicker for one certainly seems to think there's some consistency here. "Poppy" has a hand in JFK's demise, GW helps to "take care" of JFK Jr. Actually speaking of JFK Jr. did you know that at the time of the crash he was working on an expose for his GEORGE magazine looking into who he thought killed his father ??? Just another coincidence of course.
| Gopher wrote: |
| I admit that there are some very problematic and suggestive circumstances behind JFK's death -- Oswald, Ruby, the Cubans, etc. But the reason that historians don't get into this is because we don't have sufficient conclusive evidence available to evaluate. What's left are these sensationalist theories. |
For what its worth, this is essentially my impression as well. Most who are unable to "connect the dots" are mostly left with a lot of speculation based on circumstantial evidence.
However ...
Facts DO exist & many questions remain unanswered.
Why e.g. did "Poppy" demonstrated selective Altzheimer's regarding his where abouts of 11-22-1963 ??? Almost everyone remembers exactly where they were when they heard the news. His wife Barbara stated he was in Tyler, TX. although he has "speculated" that he may have been in Port Au Prince, Haiti.
FBI Special Agent, Graham Kitchell states that he received a call from George Bush on 11-22-1963, and that George Bush (and his voice) were very familiar to him at that time. The call was made to the Houston FBI office and apparently did not originate from Haiti.
Did you pick up on how Old "Poppy" Bush's ph# & address were in George DeMohrenschildt's contact book[/b] ??? He apparently blew his head off with a shotgun on the day he was to appear before a government house select committee dealing with the whole JFK thing.
Hmmmmm ... just came across this. Wow ... the coincidences just keep piling up, eh ???
Abraham Zapruder-White Russian affiliation, 32nd degree Mason, active MEMBER of 2 CIA Proprietary Organizations: The Dallas Council On World Affairs and The Crusade For A Free Europe;
These two organizations were CIA (backed) Domestic Operations in Dallas whose membership included:
Abraham Zapruder, Clint Murchison (owner of the Dallas Cowboys at that time) , Mr. Byrd, (owner of the Texas School Book Depository), Sarah Hughes, who swore LBJ in as the 36th President while Air Force One was still on the ground in Dallas, George DeMohrenschildt, (CIA contract agent AND best friend of LHO), George Bush (also close "friend" of George DeMohrenschildt - the two exchanged hundreds of letters, hundreds of phone calls, and had dozens of meetings [u]both before and after JFK's assassination), Neil Mallon, (mentor that Bush named his son, Neil, after), H.L. Hunt, & Demitri Von Mohrenschildt (George D's brother).
In September of 1976, DeMohrenschildt was subjected to 9 electro-shock treatments at Parkland Hospital under the order given by one, Doctor DeLoach ... first cousin of FBI Assisstant Director Cartha D. "Deke" DeLoach. His "doctor of record", Dr. Mendoza, ordered the administration of intravenous "drugs" upon DeMohrenschildt's being committed to Parkland Hospital for, "mental problems" - but, it was DeLoach that ordered the Electro-Shock Therapy.
This episode occured during the time that George Bush was the Director of Central Intelligence and within weeks of DeMohrenshildt's having written a manuscript for a book entitled, "I Am A Patsy! I Am A Patsy!" which named names of various CIA and FBI personnel who framed Oswald to cover their tracks in the assassination of John F. Kennedy.
http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/amazingwebofabrahamzapruder.htm
Last, but not least, why, if the old man's got nothing to hide, does he deny that he is THE "George Bush of the CIA" in an FBI memo from Hoover about the Kennedy assassination?
Indeed the Wolf Covers its Tracks. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:32 am Post subject: |
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But what if there wasn't a wolf? I think you're too wedded to the conspiracy theories, unwilling to accept a non-conspiracy interpretation, for example.
Just to restate this theory, in the driest way that I can: this film argues that George H.W. Bush, a very early CIA agent, arranged for the assassination of JFK in order to become "made" in a secret society which controls U.S. politics. He arranged for Howard Hunt and several others to shoot JFK in a conspiracy that involved dozens of people (Secret Service, military commanders, gov. of Texas, CIA and FBI agents, Cuban exiles).
Later, in order to become "made" in the same secret society, W Bush assassinated JFK, jr.
Do these claims strike you as reasonable?
Last edited by Gopher on Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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